Daniel St. Jean: You are with the two other people from the company called Caveat LLP, Andrew Choubeta is one of them. You are one of the other two people, and I understand that you've been dealing with the LTB for about five years. Is that correct?
Glenn Gosling: That's correct, yes.
Daniel St. Jean: Okay. And prior to that, you were in health services, so it looks like your whole career, or at least the later part of it, is about helping people.
Glenn Gosling: That's right. Absolutely. And it's part of the advocacy that's in it, and especially my other partner, Angie Smith, who also came from healthcare before she came into law. I think we just have that inner advocacy in us. And I think with myself and Angie, we were just basically advocating for people in getting in trouble. So there was an opportunity to make money to actually advocate and argue. So we both ended in law and we've been focusing on that ever since. And now we work alongside Andrew Choubeta who also brings a strength of experience to the table.
Daniel St. Jean: All right. And you are mostly focused on landlords and investors who are having some sort of difficulty. Something to do with the LTB.
Glenn Gosling: That's correct. So yeah, our firm focuses on investors and landlords with their issues with their tenants, not in regards to the property management to say a difference. It's when it comes to problems with your tenants of nonpayment of rent or your plans, basically going forward with them. We work with the investors as part of your strategic planning. To look at what your best legal options are going forward and work with you to achieve your own end goals.
Daniel St. Jean: Just as a personal note here Mr. Glenn and Mr. Choubeta is currently ending one of our cases where we are trying to buy a house, but the tenant doesn't wanna move. Right now, what might be different at the LTB that was not there a year, two year, or three years ago? What's happening that we should know about what's happening at the LTB right now that is new or different or strange or whatever?
Glenn Gosling: That's a really good question. Also quite an overloaded question. There's been significant changes at the landlord and tenant board. What used to be, and my personal opinion, it's not the opinion of anyone else. What was considered once to be the kangaroo court of the legal process is now the kangaroo Co with the sideshow of donkey punches. And to qualify, basically what I've just said is with the changes I came, especially with Covid and prior to Covid the landlord and tenant Board were experiencing different difficulties in the process.
As you well know, the landlord tenant board is overseen by a government body and therefore subject to the city government and funding that they may or may not get at the time. And at that time, and probably around a year before covid a lot of the adjudicators contracts were not renewed. And I believe at one time there was actually only 40 adjudicators or LTB judges for the whole of Ontario making a struggle.
We started to see a backlog even before Covid where you were waiting. Three, four months for a hearing, where prior to that was six weeks. Then we went into the blackout area because of Covid which caused significant backlashes. There was a significant increase of tenants not paying for rent because of things that may have been said or implied during news coverages. And then coming out of going out into in-person hearings and regionalizing the program, instead of centralizing the program instead of keeping regional offices opened again, causing a further backlog.
Essentially what we look at today is when you file an application with the board and there's a process to it, but essentially the landlord and tenant board are telling you when you file that you're going to wait seven to eight months for a hearing date. For the most basic of application, let's say that A tenant for one month does not pay rent, and you provide a notice of arrears and four notice, essentially rule of thumb, you're looking at 12 months until that is fully resolved through the landlord and tenant board that's processing time waiting for a hearing date time.
Waiting for the decision where previously we did not, 80% of the time you would get what they cost as a bench decision and you could act on it, which is meaning you were given a decision on the day. We never see that these days you have it through Zoom and you can wait 30, 60. I think I've waited up to 94 days for a decision. And it's an example, a case I recently did.
It was a horrendous case for the landlord, and we actually got a bench decision on the day. They said, Yes, the eviction can happen on x date, but I had to wait 94 days for that paper order to come in, and I couldn't act on evicting the person until 94 days later. And that's an eternity to investors, like new investors who just cannot afford to wait that much time until you're hitting, you're going into the red anyway. So I would say when it comes to the significant changes have been the process time, the waiting time, and now because of technology, it's now Zoom and it stays on Zoom.
There's no talk of actually going back in person and they're forever trying to improve their systems by online portals and different other issues in my personal opinion, and again, opinion of no one else. They appear to be rolling out technology without providing training. And again, this causes back backdrops. So when looking at a landlord in a tenant matter, prepare for the long haul game.
Now where our firm may differ from other firms is that we work with you as the investors and we work with you as partners and we look at opportunities outside the box of just filing an application and just waiting for a hearing date. We try to work with you and your tenants to an earlier resolution of sorts. So a lot of investors and landlords do turn to our firm because we do these types of things where, in my personal opinion, other firms may not do it anyway, I mean there's toolboxes that we always recommend to investors especially new investors.
There's experience of investors here and there's new investors, and even with experienced investors, sometimes it's interesting to have this tool or this checklist. What do I need when I buy a property? And what's my first stack? You're obviously speaking to other people, a part of your team, your strategic plan, but the first thing that you should be looking for is when you are purchasing a property or you've done that sale close, you're looking for those acknowledgements of tendencies.
Now, I don't see them a lot, but they're most critical for new property owners to have acknowledgement of tendencies. And for those people who don't know what that is, it's a single piece of paper with very important information on it that provides you as the new landlord with things like, what's the current rent? When was the start of the tenancy? More importantly, was there last month's rent held in trust by the previous owner? And did you get that from the owner? And the most critical part is it's an acknowledgement that's signed by the previous owner and the tenant that there's no ongoing issues at law in regards to the tenancy.
A lot of the time that we see. You purchase a building with X number of doors and they just need to get rid of the property. And what they've done is let their property go aside and there've been lots of complaints. So they may have filed their own tenant applications for maintenance issues or whatever issues they've had with the previous owner and what they're trying to do is bring those problems over to you. Now that acknowledgement paper is almost a full and final to acknowledge that there aren't any issues.
Knowing that when you walk into that building, you are walking in with a clear, clean slate and you can move forward on your own strategic plan and not have to deal with the previous sorrows of the old landlord that may exist. So that would be one of the things. The second thing is to have a strategic plan with your team. What are you going to do with your building? What are you doing with the tenants of the building? Are you going to maintain them? Are you gonna look for temporary relocation? If you're doing renovation, are you looking for permanent relocation?
Some people may call this renovation. It's a negative term that's thrown around, but it's a term that people know. And if you are going to do renovations. What are they going to be in? What does it look like? And once you come up with that strategic plan, what you need to do is act. Don't think about it. Just act on it. And the reason that I state that you should act on it. When it comes to landlord and tenant boards, I've mentioned some of these already.
We look at the process time, we look at the application time, and we look at the one thing that the landlord and tenant board is consistent in that it's the inconsistency of member's decisions. You can have the same case the same day in front of two adjudicators, and you can get two very different decisions because when it comes down to it, there is the black and white of the law and there's the greatness of what the opinion based on the facts that were presented, what the adjudicator believes.
That can turn basically whether you have a bad day and you don't present as well as you thought you did. And there was just something that the adjudicator saw in the way that you presented yourself, that was on the balance of probability, not in your favor, and then you're going to reset yourself. And of course, and we've talked about it, the horrors of the waiting time for an order, knowing that you won, but knowing you can't do anything until you've got that order.
Maybe I'll just pause there to see if you have any questions and cause my last piece, and I think I'm a bit mindful of the time here is when you're an investor, what are the options open to you as an investor or a new property owner going into a building? Once you have your strategic plan, what can you do? How can you act right now? But anyway, maybe I'll pause to see if there's any questions before we go into that last segment.
Daniel St. Jean: Actually going into that last segment, and then Catherine will be collecting questions if there are any, and then we'll finish with that.
Glenn Gosling: Excellent. Okay. There's a number of things that you can do. Anyone that's walking into the building, they're probably paying the last rent that you wanted in the big sale, right? Cause you're looking at, or your potential. What is the value of your building going to be? Landlords are sometimes very good, or is it very good? People have been there 10, 15 years and there's not been a rent increase. We see this a lot coming at our office. Properties or units that should be 12, $1,300 and they're paying $500, right? So what's the first thing you can do?
One, again, look, going back to your acknowledgement and tendency, when was the last time the rent was increased? And if it was more than one year increase the rent. Basically right off the bat, it's a simple form that you can get from the LTB site that you can present. And in 90 days, they're going to have to pay the increment. And now, as of January, 2023 the government has allowed that increase to be 2.5%, maybe not a lot, but it's better in your pocket than remaining in the tenants. So first thing you do is increase the rent and then the next thing that you're going to do is you're gonna look at your strategic plan.
What am I doing? Am I keeping these people? And am I doing work around them? But looking for an increase of rent over a period of time. Then I'll do the above guideline increment, basically. So I'm going to look at some work at the property that doesn't require people to leave, but I'm making significant changes to either health and safety, to common areas.
Again, looking at the above guidelines, it is quite strict and there's a strict guideline that you have to meet that can give you up to 9% in rent over three years. So 3% per year, per three years. The additional thing that you can also look at. And if your strategic plan decides that it's better to see if you can negotiate, you can get these people to move out.
Again, reevaluate the property once it's a vacant tendency that may increase that, or not an expert in this, but that may increase the value of the property. So then you're going to look at the N 13, or which is the notice to end the tendency because of demolition, repair or conversion. Now to meet the threshold for an N 13 is quite high. There are certain things that you certainly need to meet, but, and I won't go through them here, but the take home that I want you to stick to your mind if you're going to do an N 13 means permits.
That's it. If you don't have permits, it doesn't matter how big, how lovely it's going to look and what you're going to say to the adjudicator, It doesn't matter. If you don't have permits, you're not going to win. And then in between where our, I would say at Caveat LL P, we pride ourselves on, which is I know Andrew will hate me for using this term, but I know it's a term that people use and understand a cash for keys. Basically, is there a negotiation that can happen between the landlord or the landlord representative and the tenant to leave at a certain time for a certain price.
If you're successful in that, then you can provide an N 11 to get that signed. And then with that, they will leave the property and will not return. And you can do with that property what you wish those demands. We're seeing that tenants are quite educated in everything in the sense of. They will look for, give me $30,000, $40,000 and I'll leave. Gimme this. And again, just going back to what we focus here at Caveat, LLP is we work with those tenants and we work with you as the investor of the landlord to look at a place that you are equally unhappy with, and that's a settlement.
The justice system looks at a, if both parties walk away equally unhappy, therefore you paid a little bit more than you wanted to, and the tenant got a little less that they wanted. But they left, then everyone's a winner. And I think with that I've taken my time. So I won't take it anymore. But I'm open to questions.
Daniel St. Jean: Katherine.
Katherine Nelson-Riley: I'm not seeing it. That was excellent. That was really excellent information. Thank you very much, Glen. I'm not seeing any questions that have come in just over, but from what we've learned is that people are starting to think, and then when we get into our virtual networking, I'm pretty sure that we'll be having some questions come up there as well. But thank you very much and for joining us.
Daniel St. Jean: One quick comment here before we go to Jamil. Yes. From my experience as I said earlier, I have a case right now where Glen and Andrew are dealing with the LTB to get that person out. My conclusion is that dealing with LTB is not a do it yourself. And I realized that. You don't want to come forward and say this because that would sound like you're marketing your business. But I can tell people on this call from experience and from a lot of other people who I know, I've had this experience. This is not just the same way. You don't do your own thing, I don't know.
You don't remove your own teeth. You go to the dentist for that. You don't, in my view, you don't go to the ltb on your own without anybody to help you out. That, especially when you realize that you could do all that. And then 16 months are gonna go, you're gonna lose. And now you're gonna hire somebody to help you because you screwed up on the form or you did not do a good presentation, or you forgot this and forgot that.
Now we're gonna start all over again and it's gonna take you another 12 or 13 months. So now you've wasted three years instead of doing it right from the beginning. And hire the professionals who are gonna help you. So you don't have to say anything about that cause that would be marketing, but I can tell people that's what they should be doing. Okay, you're shaking your head. That's all I need. Okay, good. All right.
Glenn Gosling: Just one last comment. So I did notice when people are entering with a chat, so it's really great to see people from Ontario here. When I'm not giving advice, This is not legal advice, but when I'm giving you my experience and where I'm coming from, I'm coming from Ontario and Ontario law.
This is not what you may see in other provinces. And all I can do is if you are listening from other provinces in Canada, then you should seek out your legal professional in your province to see how it works in your province.
Daniel St. Jean: All right.
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