Formulating an Approach for Passive and Active Income Properties and Property Transfers to Corporations were the two areas covered in this presentation from James Buckley of DJB.
Topics within that covered;
When to incorporate
Assembling team
Rollovers
Bare Trust Agreements
Family Trusts
and many additional questions were also answered.
Katherine: James is a real estate investor himself with a focus on condo flips and assignments and multi unit residential. He brings a true understanding for both sides of the table as a tax partner with Durward Jones Barkwell & Co. LLP where he provides tax expertise, planning and compliance services to owner managed businesses of all sizes.
Previous to joining DJB, James worked for a boutique Toronto law firm in the area of US and Canada cross border taxation for corporate and high net worth individual clients. Don't let that fool you because he also has expertise with the smaller ones as well, and everything in between, which is really important. He has expertise, knowledge plus in 2018, James was honored to be recognized as one of Hamilton tops, 40 under 40.
Tonight, James is going to take us through how to formulate an approach for passive and active income properties and property transfers to corporations. Don't forget to put your questions in the chat and James will be sure to answer them throughout. James, welcome.
James: Thank you very much for having me.
Katherine: We'll hand it over to you for your presentation and I'm really looking forward to what you have to share with us tonight. We're gearing up to tax season and there's a lot of information. I know that you'll be sharing with us.
James: Welcome everyone. Thanks for joining us. In terms of today's content, I was working with Katherine to try and get something that was relatively generic and starting from the grassroots up as we're a new member. As we grow and build rapport and have discussion, we can cover anything.
We also start with a disclaimer today. Anything we talk about just what's active today in terms of tax legislation, we're not giving any legal advice and then obviously all situations are unique. I think the worst thing you could probably take away from today is take something generic and say, oh, now I need to implement it. It's more so having a customized.
In terms of the agenda today like Francois and Katherine was saying, we're going to be going through passive and active tax rates seems quite simple but it's something we often see overlooked when we're looking at an investment approach that leads into the next piece, which is formulating what we believe to be the proper approach, which includes assembling a team around you. Then we'll move into, when do you use corporate?
Often we see that can be done incorrectly at times, or done went out needed and things like that. Then, we'll go into property transfers to a corporation, rollovers that's a little bit more complex and then same with bare trust agreements, a little bit more complexity there, something we see a lot in the real estate world. If you have any questions, please put them in.
Starting it off, passive and active tasks. When people look to buy property often taxes in their first consideration, it's, can I afford it? Can I get a loan? Is the rent roll and cash flow gonna make sense? But being a tax geek, the first thing I think about is, okay, what type of tax are we looking at for this piece of real estate or this project? And that's really understanding how you want it to be structured from a tax perspective. That's your biggest kind of component. When we think about that, we look at types of income.
First thing to understand is, rental income is considered passive. We'll get to what that means, but it's important to understand that there's exceptions if you have five full-time employees or if you have commercial real estate that you have leased to an associated corporation but other than that, we're mainly in the passive world when we think about rents.
When we look at the bottom of this slide, you can see here what does that mean? When we think of active income, as opposed to passive, that's more like manufacturing land flips in terms of our discussion today, assignments, renovation and immediate flip things like that would be considered active income.
Things like rents would be considered passive similar to capital gains or things like that. Why does that matter? At a corporate level active income gets this favored 12.2% on the first $500,000 of income, and then 26.5% on any dollar over $500,000 of income. However, passive income at the corporate level doesn't get that same benefit. It's taxed at 50.17% subject to this concept of refundable tax, which is really outside of the scope of this conversation. But if you look at the personal tax, the top rate is really 53.53% on any dollar over $220,000.
We have a marginal tax rate system in Canada. Gears all the way up to 53.5% of any dollar over $220,000. What that's meant to demonstrate is for rents. An often misconception sometimes is that you're really no better off having it inside of a corporation rather than not. What I wanted to demonstrate was for us to set the stage as we went into some of the other discussion points in the presentation.
If we look at a quick example of integration of rental income, this is just holding things constant and saying, okay, we have an individual who's at top rate. They are already at $220,000 of personal income. If we look at, if they have $50,000 of rental income earned personally, versus if they have $50,000 of rental income earned in a corporation, we want to see the difference. If we look here at option one rental earned, personally, we can see that your tax 53.5%, you ended up with about $23,000 of after tax cash.
If we earn that money in a corporation with rental income, and we just paid tax at the corporate level, our refundable tax floated all out as a dividend. We actually ended up with $21,000 in our genes. What's important to demonstrate is that there's actually some slip on passive income earned in a company about 4% worse off for the Canadian taxpayer right now.
Why can't I set the stage with that is because sometimes we'll talk to investors and they'll say, oh, I set up a corporation will say, oh, why did you talk with your mortgage broker lender? They say no, we did it for tax purposes. We go, okay. Maybe this wasn't something that was thought about now, this certainly doesn't mean that incorporating is bad for rentals.
Don't want you to take that away whatsoever, but it's just important to understand the tax component and why understanding your type of income versus rental and passive or active is very important. Alternatively, if we looked at an active scenario, this is a land flip. In our example, here we say, let's say a flip's going to earn $250,000.
Let's also assume this individual needs a hundred thousand to that, to live their life. If we look at the first example, an unincorporated individual, they earn their $250,000, they pay their tax. They end up with $116,000 again, assuming top rate. However, in a corporation, we know that a land flip will be considered active income. If we look at that, you would be eligible for this 12.2% lower rate provided you qualified for that in which case.
We look at our example, we say, okay, we'll take a hundred thousand out as salary.
Let's say in this example, that's what we need to live our lives. We'll leave the other $150,000 in the company to pay tax at the corporate level and will qualify for this lower rate, pay that. If you look at the blended amount between what you have personally, and what you've deferred in the corporation, you've got $178,000. The net is about $62,000 that you wouldn't have or that you would have paid in tax.
If you simply didn't corporate. What this allows you to do is reinvest quicker into other projects, other rentals, other things you may be doing private lending investments, whatever it might be. The true power of a corporation is one understanding the type of income that you'll be earning and to the ability to leave that money in there to reinvest it because again, if we earn this money at a corporation and we blew it all out the next day, strictly from a tax perspective, that corporations really not providing you any favor.
I like to set the stage with that from a tax perspective, knowing that tax is only one of the buckets. That kind of leads into formulating you know what we believe to be the kind of proper approach, which is an advisory one. When you're looking at buying a property or doing a flip or doing an infill or, whatever it might be. I think that the three main buckets you're looking at are tax and accounting, legal and lending in terms of making a decision.
Whether it makes sense to acquire something personally, acquired through a partnership or joint venture or an incorporated. What I've seen happen when you don't have, let's say all these players on the same call is you'll set up a corporation and it's really, you've done it for tax purposes, but really it's only complicated, your lending potentially and has done nothing for you legally again. We're not mortgage brokers or lawyers, but from what we see in some of those discussions, or alternatively, you don't set up a con.
You really needed it because it was something active where you could pay much lower tax and difference. You have consequences that you can't really unwind after the fact and so by having that discussion upfront you'll really make sure that you structure yourself for success going forward. Some of the things you could see that could happen if you don't do that would be, let's say you buy something personally that really should have been in the company. After you have it personally, you have to transfer it into the company somehow.
Even if you can potentially circumvent income tax, when you make that transfer, you might not be able to do that with land transfer tax. Other situations we've seen some people set up these vast corporate structures, and then when we get onboard and work through it is really unnecessary sometimes. Another example is we'll talk about it with something like land inventory, you could really get yourself in some complexities if you want to be moving it around after you close on it.
If we consider at a high level when to use a corporation again, really high. One would consider the nature of your income passive versus active. I would say that again, being the tax that'd be the first thing I would look at. Probably shouldn't be the first thing you should look at. It probably should be a goodbye but that's the one thing.
The next thing is consider if you have other corporations and surplus fare. If you have another corporation, because you're a doctor with a medical professional corporation, or you own another business, you're going to have money at the corporation. Instead of taking that out personally and getting slammed with personal tax to buy an investment, just to avoid the slight slippage on integration, you could just loan it over to that other corporate entity and make your investment there.
Review your legal concerns with your lawyer, discussions with your lender, your financial advisor, your mortgage broker, in terms of those contemplations. Lending rates, can you get approved in a corporation, especially if it's a new one, you want to be aware of that upfront and then that leads to, at the end, creating a custom approach. Sometimes, the approach can be, hey, we only really want to plan for this project and we don't want to set up this Ferrari of a structure before we know what we're dealing with.
Alternatively, you have a lot of capital and a lot of the ability to invest. And so what you want to do is actually upfront, think through all those pieces and create a structure at the beginning that you can just plug into and use, as you grow. It's important to note that it's not just from a tax and legal or tax and accounting perspective. It's really also on, obviously having those three main players at the table to have discussions because again, even in terms of thinking like something like a commercial property with environmental or things like that maybe you give a slightly better tax rate personally, but I'm not sure you want to risk that on your personal name.
Next thing I'll touch on was part of what I mentioned, there is this concept of property transfers, incorporations, and rollovers and so sometimes what we'll see is, land deals can, and property deals can move quickly. Like we know what the market's like right now. Some investors get it in their minds that they can lock something up and then deal with how it gets structured or who owns what, like on the backend.
Although there's a signing closes and things like that, you can do. You definitely want to be cognizant, depending on the type of property or what you're buying, how you can transfer it around and how that could impact you. Talking about something like land inventory, so that's a flip, that this isn't just raw land. That would be if you bought a house and you just want to put in $20,000 at work and sell it in six months, without renting it you can not transfer that without income tax into a corporation.
You may be able to in a partnership a little bit outside of the scope of what we're talking about today, but in terms of transferring it from your individual name into a corporation or from corporation, you're actually prohibited from doing that. If you bought it on day one and it appreciated a whole bunch and you figure it out sometime in the future that you want to move it into a company.
You can have an income tax exposure on whatever it's grown at. However, with things like capital property, like rentals, for example, something that you're renting out, you can actually transfer that quite easily from your individual name into a corporation or between corporations with no income tax concern. You can file a rollover and move that. However, you also need to consider land transfer tax.
Even though there's the term tax in land transfer tax, it's really a legal concept. What you want to be mindful of is when you're transferring properties, even though your accountant might say, Hey, we can do this without income tax, depending on how it's structured or how much it's appreciated. You may not be able to do it without land transfer tax. Why that's an important distinction, something to think about is it ties back into the slide with coming up with a strategy because what we see in some situations is maybe it doesn't make sense today to own a bunch of property or properties inside of a company.
What you're saying is, if your end goal is to scale and to grow and you're going to end up there, then if you end up with a bunch of properties personally, at some point in the future, you're going to have to transfer into a company. You might have a land transfer tax consideration in the future that you'd want to be thinking about today and that certainly doesn't mean that in all cases you want to incorporate just for that, but it just getting back to that thought of when you're acquiring things like matching your strategy and thinking about those buckets is just really important.
That kind of ties into this concept of bare trust agreements. We see this a lot and in terms of bare trust agreements, I would say, very few people who use them fully understand them in terms of the investor. I think that it's important to understand why you are using them, what they're doing for you and how they're benefiting you or how they're complicating things potentially and so really simply a bare trust agreement is this concept of differing, legal and beneficial owners.
It's commonly used in the development world. Bare trusts, there's a million names. You could have a nominee agreement, beneficial ownership, agreement, bare trust agreement. They can be tied into joint venture groups. There's all these ad-ons but at the end of the day there, it's doing the same thing in terms of the separation of your legal and beneficial ownership. What you can do using an example is let's say there's two individuals and they're jiving on a project. They can set up just a blank nail company, a bare trust company that would close on legal title for the land, but then the lawyer would do a beneficial ownership agreement that would say hey, no, it's really these two joint venture parties.
Let's say that we beneficially own that project and that's, who's going to pick up the income tax reporting, the income, the expenses and all those types of things, what we've seen more recently is the everyday investor. Using that concept at times and where we would see that is where an individual would close on a property. Let's say on the APS, but then they would have their lawyer, do a beneficial ownership agreement with a company.
What happens there, and this is where it's crucial to have a mortgage broker lender that you're in constant communication with. As part of that process is because depending on lending rates or your access to capital or things like that could impact whether you'd want to use a bare trust agreement where, hey, maybe there's a tax reason, let's say that you want to have it in a company or illegal one but in terms of the financing component, there may be struggles there with having a new company on the legal purchase and sale.
It's really important to make sure you're talking with your lawyer about this piece too, because the banks have disclosures that you're required to adhere to in terms of your lending. If you're doing a bare trust agreement without their knowledge, that could create some issues. You definitely want to make sure you're being upfront with your lender and your lawyer when you're doing that piece of structuring but where we've seen this kind of add some value is let's say you're closing on some properties and you're doing it individually for lending, but you ultimately want to get them into a company at some future point based on your strategy and your approach from those buckets that we discussed.
If you have that property owned personally, legally, but beneficially in a company, again, working with your lawyer, they may be able to not have land transfer tax apply when you ultimately transfer in that title into a company. Let's say on a future refinance or something like that, when you're buying a property, having all those buckets aligned and understanding why you're using some of these things is really important. With that, I think I'm 30 seconds early, but that is my presentation today.
Francois: Excellent.
I thought that was awesome. And I totally get it. We have some really good questions. I don't know Katherine, if you wanted to ask James directly or should I?
Katherine: James, that was really excellent. I never really understood the bare trust agreements. I'd heard about it, but I never really understood it. It was really interesting to hear that. Let me go back up. There were quite a few questions that we did have for you and a question from Franca is I was told that if I sell my pre-construction condo by assignment or on the first year, it would be considered business capital gains and therefore much more inexpensive rather than waiting a year and selling it then. Is there any advice to offer? We were thinking that we would like to sell as soon as it closes.
James: In terms of assignments, that's ones that the CRA are really hot, the trot on. 10 years ago, it wasn't as common to buy a condo, wait six months and have it go up 25%. What's happening now is yes, the CRA if you do not rent that property, the CRA would consider it a business move if you bought it and just sold it. It wouldn't be a capital gain. It would be taxed at full income. If you had that personally, that full income would be taxed at your marginal rate.
Whatever let's say you have a $150,000 salary, you're already at a 45% marginal rate. Technically, that would be taxed at that but if you had that in a company, depending on the amount of gain, it would qualify potentially for that lower rate of tax. The other piece to consider there as the CRA is being really sticklers with that. If you're technically doing an assignment you have to consider which could impact the amount of profit you would have on that assignment.
Katherine: That's really good information to know. I'm just seeing one of our sponsors from Windrose Group, Claire Drage. She's in the audience tonight with some of her team members. She gave you a shout out to say great information and agree with the customer approach. Everyone has a different scenario. She wanted to say thank you. Absolutely.
Next question from Paul, if corporations hold multiple properties or rental and then purchase for a flip. Can you report active income from a flip at the same time while reporting passive income? If you hold another property under the corporation that is a rental, each income would be taxed at different rates or does all income get treated in one way?
James: It would be taxed differently. It's based on the type of income that you have there. If you have active income that will be taxed at the active rates. If you have passive income, it would be taxed at the passive rates. The one thing to note there is this legal thing, would the question be, do you want those things in the same bucket? Because if you're doing a development or an infill or a flip, and there's a different liability profile than assets that you're holding for a while, you might want to contemplate at times doing those separately, but to be clear from a tax perspective, and this is the distinction I wanted to try to draw as part of the presentation from a tax perspective, you do not have.
You can have all different types of income. You can have an investment portfolio there. You could hold whole life insurance. You could privately lend. You can do a flip, you can do a full blown land development. Your income tax is going to be what the action was, not what entity it's in. It's some of these other buckets that drive you to move those in separate spots. Not saying that's a good idea. I'm just saying from a tax perspective, like just the word clear.
Katherine: That's really important because you don't know, and there's so many different scenarios and there are so many different things and that's why we need experts such as yourself to help guide us through it. It's really important and Paul is also saying, thanks so much, great info, James. We've got Petty John's that's part of the windows team saying super informative, James, thank you and Amiel as well, awesome, which is great. Jason is one of our next speakers that will be coming up. You're getting a lot of kudos that are here. Any more questions? Francois, do you have any?
Francois: Personally, no, but I saw another one, two of them in the chat. One is let's see, there's a few of them from Meagan. Can you elaborate on how bare trusts can defer land transfer tax on a section 85 role?
James: I can tell you how the section 85 rollover works, how the land transfer tax component works again. As even though it has the word tax in there, absolutely speak with your lawyer. It's going to be them to opine on that. But on the 85, roll over how that works if you can, when you're transferring a piece of capital property income or active property like a development land inventory, flip, something like that.
A rental, your accountant can file a form, a T 2057 under section 85, where you can elect to transfer that property at cost from your individual name into a corporation or for example, from corporation to corporation. What you're doing is you're telling the CRA, hey, listen, I'm moving this asset and it could have appreciated by a million dollars, but as long as I fill this form out correctly and follow the correct process, they're going to be okay. That you're not paying any income tax on that transfer.
Francois: That's very good. There's another question from Martin as well. So, thanks, James. How is capital gain calculated if you are selling the holding Corp that holds the properties instead of selling the properties themselves?
James: When you're buying a real estate, you would essentially never want to buy the shares because your cost, what you're paying for that property is going to be stuck in the cost of the shares, not in the cost of the asset and if I'm buying a piece of real estate, I would never buy your shares. I'm only going to buy your assets.
Let's say you've bought a million dollars in real estate, inside of a corporation and it's appreciated to 2 million. Let's just say the real estate inside, but when you start a corporation, nine times out of 10, you're starting it with $1, a share capital or a hundred dollars, something nominal. Although the cost of your real estate inside the corporation is quite high, the cost of your shares, it's quite low.
If someone's buying the real estate from you and they buy the shares, one, you're going to have quite a large capital gain because you're not going to get to use that inside of the company. Secondly, the person who's buying it from you when they buy those shares from you, their costs of the shares go up to 2 million, but the cost of the real estate stays at 1 million because it's inside the company.
If they sell the real estate on the next day. They're going to have a capital gain inside of there that they otherwise wouldn't have if they bought the asset other than very specific double hold called land deals in excess of 50 or a hundred million you would essentially never see that or rarely see.
Francois: That's a very fancy move.
James: I would think.
Francois: Have you seen that Francois? No, I wish but I'm not there yet. I have thought about selling the corporation with my properties. It seems simpler, especially with commercial lending but then, like you said, tax considerations and all kinds of legal ramifications, the history of the corporation, it doesn't help. We have another question from MVL, capital if you purchase their pre-construction as a primary residence, but the situation has changed. Does it make a difference for taxes if you chose to sell before closing or after closing?
James: That's tricky and that's sometimes what we see and I can touch on that land transfer tax. Actually, I didn't see that come up so I can touch on that after we get time. This is the part where we talk with people up front because this was one of the kinds of examples from the presentation. Let's say that you buy something pre-construction you are going to live in it. You would always want to buy that personally because it has the access to the principal residence exemption. You cannot access that if that was inside of a corporation.
Let's say that the facts change and you're not going to live in it and you're going to flip it. It sucks because if your game was big enough. It's more than 10, 12, 15,000, whatever. Then you might've wanted that in a corporation to have access to those low rates but that's where having a bit of the crystal ball in terms of what you're going to do with it, because you can only make a decision with the information you have today.
When having that approach up front, when you talk about that property, I think that's the important piece, because if you're having a discussion, say, I might live in this, I might have then we would talk about, you should be talking about how, what type of gain would you could be considering, what type of other properties do you own personally and have that distinction.
To be clear, if you were going to live in it, you actually never lived in it. You're just going to assign it like that would not give you access to the principal residence exemption. If you actually never lived in it, it would become business income like you were flipping up.
Francois: Excellent answer. I see a lot of great questions in the chat. We will address them in the virtual networking at the end. Just one last thing, James, what do you offer an initial consultation? I see a lot of people seem interested in calling you. What do you suggest?
James: If anybody has any questions or wants to chat or go over this land transfer tax thing, cause I got comments there, great. I'm always available. We're a new member. We want to jump in and help out there's topics you want to be hearing about through Katherine, Francois and the group. Let them know, happy to speak on them and we have budget updates coming out with a new federal budget. We have HSTs really hot with short-term rentals.
There's new things with Airbnbs. You have to be careful about buying property, Florida, US, Costa Rica, that type of thing. Let us know, happy to help. If you reach out happily to have a call with you for half an hour, talk about your situation. You're not gonna get a bill in the mail and then let's see if we can help you and add value or at least point you in the right direction for some of those things.
Katherine: We've got a question for James from Sherwin. How can one recapture HELOC expenses on an investment property?
James: On the best, recapture expenses on a property.
Katherine: HELOC expenses on an investment property. Like a Home Line Of Credit expenses?
Francois: I guess the interest on the HELOC that you're using to invest, that could be in your principal residence. A lot of people borrow and use it to buy another property. But how do you keep track of that? The proper way? I assume that's the question.
James: Francois, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're just talking about interest deductibility here. If you take a line of credit on anything and you have an interest expense, and you're using that towards a piece of real estate, whether it be passive or active, you have an ability to deduct that interest cost against your income. I don't know if I answered the question properly, but I don't deal with many of those, but I think that's maybe better for someone on my team at the ground level.
Katherine: That's okay, we'll make sure that they get it and make sure that we connect you up so that those can get answered properly. We will follow up with that.
James: I think we were just talking about interest deductibility.
Francois: Pretty sure that's what it is. That's normally what investors do and that's why you want that line of credit or infinite banking, which is a line of credit in a way you're borrowing yet you've got interests and then the purpose is for investments.
James: I think it's the purpose for the income's investing. If you take it personally, and you put it into a company, you can load it into the company and match the interest rate plus 0.1%, call it for an income earning purpose. You have that deduction at the corporate level as well. The only trouble you get into is when you refinance your business or rental properties and you try to pay off your house and then deduct the interest against your income, that if it got reviewed as a little more slippery.
Katherine: That's good to know. Here's another question from Benny, is assignment and corporation also treated as active income?
James: Yes, if you have an assignment and you haven't rented that property or anything like that, this is how you treat your income if it's up to you. If you want to try to make a cap, like it's not completely black and white. These are some of the things, even when we talk about things like principal residence, exemption, oh, you have to live there a year. Not necessarily, as long as it qualifies a habitual abode but if you string a bunch of those together, this series is going to look at it differently.
Technically speaking, if you buy a property on assignment and you assign it within three months and you haven't done anything. That's probably going to be viewed by the CRA is a flip. Whether it's personally or in the corporation and would most likely be considered active income and then it would just personally you'd have exposure to a higher tax rate in a corporation. It would be a lower one.
Katherine: On one of your slides that you had earlier, I found it intriguing because there wasn't that much of a difference between whether it was a corporation or not. You really do need to have an expert on your team to help you through that too, to know whether to go for a corporation or not. It was really interesting to see the actual figures on that.
James: It's important to know too that it's I think again, 10, 15 years ago, if you bought a rental, what you intended to rent and you never rented it and you weren't a developer or land flipper and have some type of history or background in that. You sold it and you had a capital gain treatment. You probably wouldn't be a big deal. You might not even get reviewed, not a problem in the market we're in now and what's happening.
There's the same thing with your principal residence. If you sold the principal residence and claimed that exemption, you never had to disclose it to the CRA. You have to file a farm specifically saying that you've sold your home and let them know because there's market conditions that impact how the CRA would view certain things. It's not a hundred percent that if you are assigning something it's immediately active income, I'm just talking at a high level in terms of CRA review doesn't necessarily mean you can't take or try to take approaches towards the capital gain cause that's half taxable in those situations.
I think Katherine, to your point, it's all about having those discussions. It's very rarely, completely black and white especially if you're doing that. You want to have an understanding of the same thing with substantial renovation. For example, that's 90% of the property down to the studs. What is that? You know what I mean? There's so much gray area there that you want to have an understanding of the talk through.
Katherine: That's something that's really good to know. Thank you for clarifying that. Dean has a question for and what about family trusts?
James: I would spend half my week probably talking to wealthy Canadians about family. They're a fantastic tool. They have to be administered with some care when you have properties because of when you pass away, there's different types of taxes that you have to consider but at a high level of family, trust is a great tool to put corporate wealth into and defer the tax to the next generation trust and hold that property for 21 years before it has to make a decision what it does with it.
If you have enterprises active or passive, there can be value in establishing a trust and passing this on to that growth. Typically, that would be done in conjunction with what's called an estate freeze. What happens very simply is if you have a corporate structure, you could do a transaction on a tax deferred basis today to freeze that value and take it back in a class, a share to yourself, you then give new shares as of today to that trust.
As you continue to grow in value, none of that shared value is going to you as an individual, which should impact your state on passing. All that value is going into this family trust, which if administered properly can defer tax one to two generations.
Katherine: This was really awesome, James. Thank you very much. For everybody, there is a lot of interest in reaching out to you. You can find James at jbuckley@djb.com. We've got that here in the chat. We've got his information up here on the slide. He will be around, he can answer questions in the chat. We'll be around for our virtual networking and also accessible directly and on our site as well as through our Facebook page.
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