Daniel St. Jean, Laurel Simmons, Sarah Larbi & Alfonso Salemi
Alfonso: Guys, thank you so much, REITE club nation. First-timers, REITE club. Hey, this is our first live virtual event. So, it's something that we're trying this month. Getting everybody together. We know that there's a lot of questions, a lot going on. September is usually a month of renewal going back to school, rebirth. It's a completely different world out there.
We thought the four of us got together and where it all started really, in the Holiday Inn here in Burlington. That's where we all are tonight. And we're going to talk at a little bit of a round table. We actually are going to do it. So, we have two round tables that we're going to do it. And yeah, we're going to be talking a little bit about some of our insights, some of the things that we've learned, how we're adapting and what's going on in those seven months that Daniel's talked about. So, I'll pass it over you to Daniel because we have a really cool announcement to make as well.
Daniel: Yes. The club is really growing fast and we plan on having a lot of members months and years from now. And we need somebody who is specifically, job. If I can just call it, that is to look after members, a member advocate. So, we found the perfect person. He is from Ottawa. He speaks French, English and Spanish, and he is, let's see here. I really have to read this because there's a lot of this guy, who has been 20 years of customer service, sales, marketing communication. And he's been a real estate investor for over 15 years. Yes. He started when he was six in his crib. He and his wife hosts a social media mini show called wine and real estate.
Laurel: Which I was a guest on by the way.
Daniel: We actually brought him all the way from Ottawa, just for today. And then after that you're staying around, but then you're going back home tomorrow because he is still fully employed. Maybe not for too long, but still fully employed. But he will become our member advocate and he will be the one taking care of everything to do with member relationships with the co-founders and whatever else we're doing. So, Francois Lanthier.
Sarah: I do want to say though, by the way, we just had Francois on our podcast and he has built a real estate business or a great real estate portfolio. I don't know how many doors you've got right now, but guys listen to the podcast. You just like completely expanded, did a lot of JVs, a lot of stuff on your own. Got a cottage as well. So, he's an awesome real estate investor as well as networking as part of the REITE club. Okay.
Francois: Thank You.
Alfonso: I love it. The REITE club nation is growing. And we're really excited that Francois's on board and yeah, again, we we have a bunch of new things going on, constantly going on, learning, adapting, growing, just like any good real estate investor, business owner and even in your own personal life, if you're not growing, you're dying. We're going to just be a little informal tonight, have talked a little bit about, we have some questions, set up that. Thank you so much to the REITE club nation that I sent in some of the questions and shared on our forums on the REITE club community.
If you haven't checked that out, we're gonna talk a little bit more about that as well, too. And yeah. Make sure you send your questions in the chat. We are monitoring as well too. We have our amazing Katherine here as well, our operations manager. That's going to be monitoring the chat and letting us know if we have any good questions. So, yeah, why don't we get started?
Sarah: I just want to take a moment and this could not be everything that we're doing could not be possible if it was not for our REITE partners. So, we've got an amazing lineup of partners that are going to be with us this year. And first of all, thank you to those people, but it's also really important to have a really good team of experts, because I, Alfonso, Laurel, Daniel, we couldn't do this by ourselves. It takes a whole team of great people to help us get to our goals.
I just wanted to take a moment and just thank our sponsors for this year, our REITE partners. And these are team members that one of us works with or all of us work with and they have helped us get to where we are today. Just by alphabetical order of BDO Canada, Blackjack Contracting, Brenda Schuiling Realty, Butler Mortgages Inc, Ryan Carson from Carson Law, Dupuis Properties Mel and Dave, Elevation Realty, hub International, King Homes Inc, Legal Second Suites, Mission 35 Mortgages, Mycor Insurance, Pinnacle Wealth, Property Pathways, Trust Your Talent, White Elm Design and The Windrose Group.
Thank you so much for your support and you will hear a lot more from our REITE partners because they are here to help us get to that next level and to help us grow.
Alfonso: And from what I heard as well too. We have definitely more than a few in the group tonight. So, if you have any questions for any of our REITE club partners, make sure to put them in there, that's what it's about. We're all trying to get those answers and getting the best experience from everybody.
Definitely reach out to those amazing REITE club partners. Thank you guys so much for helping us out in making the REITE club what it is today. Like I said, why don't we get started with the chat tonight? We have a couple of questions. One that keeps coming up is, what are you seeing in your neighborhood or in the areas where you're purchasing properties. Not necessarily where you live, but where you're expanding your business, where you're growing. Maybe Daniel, let's start off with you. What are you seeing in the neighborhoods?
Daniel: What I'm seeing in the neighborhood, if you call Ontario, the neighborhood and if you call Halifax, the neighborhood is an absolute crazy sellers market. The inventory is low. A lot of people are out there to buy almost everything. I've actually, in preparation for this. I've called real tourists from London, Sarnia, Windsor Ottawa, North Bay, Thunder Bay. Yes, and Halifax. It's crazy everywhere. It's multiple offers. But for people that know Ottawa a little bit, there's a little town outside of Ottawa called Marie and the realtor there who's been there for 15 years as never ever seen in her career. Multiple offers well, or the last three properties that she sold were on multiple offers.
There's multiple offers in Oxberry. Whoa, where are we going? It's multiple offers everywhere. We actually sold the property recently in Kitchener, we had 8 offers, 38 visits over the weekend. We listed it at 475 with our fingers crossed, cause we thought we'll take 470. We sold it for 552. So, that's 20% over asking. Totally crazy, that's what we find. With no conditions. Yeah, that's right. So this is what we see happening in our neighborhood. We have a couple of people who have been looking for two months now to buy a house in Brenton.
They can't find anything in the price range that they have, but also when they do find something, the realtor's first comment is, and remember if you place an offer, no condition. So, since we are renting and are not buying houses without inspection, guess what, two months, and they're still looking. So, it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy.
Sarah: We are in 2017, again, right before they made all of those changes and the market was going crazy. But even just looking back to January, February, and then it paused, and it's almost like it's just continuing from that January, February craziness, how much longer can this happen?
So, my thoughts originally, I thought, October, November, we're going to start seeing it slow down, but then, with the Serb extension and the mortgage deferrals and everything. It's just my opinion, January to March is likely when there's going to be a little bit more opportunity, potentially for people that are looking to buy, because first of all, I've always found my deals between November and February when it was cold.
And I call it the three D's. People don't plan to sell, but people unfortunately die and they pass away. So, you've got the estate sales, you've got the divorces and then you've got the debt. We might see a lot of the dead part where they've got to sell in order to, either downsize or potential.
Alfonso: Yeah, absolutely. And Laurel, you obviously everybody we talked to is there's such a high demand. There's multiple offers, no conditions like the wild west, right? It's oh, buy this property is the last one ever going to be on sale. It feels so maybe, I don't know. And let's get some involvement in the chat.
What are some investors where we're not going to stop buying properties? We're not going to stop evolving. We're not just going to say, okay we're just going to wait and see. That's not the type of people, the REITE club nation is right. We're going to, we're going to make that change. We're going to say let's adapt. How do we do that? So, maybe what are some things you recommend or that you think.
Laurel: One of the things I see a lot of the buying frenzy is from people who are buying properties actually live in because there's a lot of stuff going on, particularly in the GMT, okay. Gin and tonic. Wow.
Alfonso: That's after this event.
Sarah: She didn't drink that much wine.
Laurel: The GTA and the larger centers like Ottawa, people want, especially the Toronto area though. They want to get out of the city. So that's forcing people, forcing they're spread out and they're going out to the, like the ring, not beyond the GTA and the next ring beyond that. And the next ring beyond that. So, that's forcing prices up. So, people who are buying for themselves are willing to pay that, but investors are not right. If you're serious about it, you run the numbers. And if you look at it and so, you're looking at Belleville or Kingston, or I don't know, Tobermory, or whatever Trenton or Fort Erie, you've really got to be creative.
I think if you're investing and looking at places where people haven't really gone to yet you are probably going to see some upward pressure on prices, but there's also the rest of Canada. There's Manitoba, there's Saskatchewan. And even though there might be an upward price pressure probably not as much as here and also think about it. Manitoba, Saskatchewan, we know that the base price was lower to begin with. You could probably a few months ago. So, buy a nice house for under 200,000 or around the 200,000 mark. So, even if it goes up 20%. That's way different than starting in a house. That's at 500,000 and going up 20%, right.
Alfonso: That's right. And obviously the REITE club, we were formed in the Burlington area. But now with our online community, we are nationwide East, the West, both coasts, even the territories, we have members across the country and yeah, you have to be creative, if it's not working, I need to buy something in the GTA. If I always hear Sarah talking about on our podcast and we have all those conversations is the fundamentals.
Don't just buy because and then figure it out later, have the plan in place. What kind of casual do you want? What, appreciation is always the cherry on top, but have the fundamentals where you are cash flowing. There are markets that appreciate more, appreciate less, but knowing that info going into it, not just making an offer saying, hey, I have to buy because it's getting hot, right?
Laurel: Yeah. That's about buying an emotion and we, as an investor, you don't buy an emotion. If numbers don't work, you don't buy it. Because Sarah said, we hope things calm down a little bit, but there's still, I think there are lots of opportunities out there. I think Daniel was talking to an investor, a real estate agent in Asia for the day in Kingston. And he was saying that there's some opportunity there for properties for student rentals.
We're going to talk about student rentals a little bit later, but because there are university towns, there's a lot of rundown student rentals. And a lot of people who want to move into a place do not want to spend the time or the effort to fix them up. That's your opportunity as an investor, if you're willing to look beyond the black paint on the walls and whatever it is. I was at university there and I know what it's like, not my house, but, whatever.
Sarah: So, speaking of cleaning up, fixing up. I think at this point, and you guys, feel free to chime in, but it's not just investors buying properties to fix up. Look at a lot of homeowners, right? Like lumber is gone. You're trying to build a deck. You're not building a deck likely this year, there is no lumber for many of our areas that we live in.
A lot of people, I think with everything that was going on, they were like, okay, how can I make my living situation even better? And this is homeowners, investors, but everybody, how can I make a better backyard? How can I live in a space that I am also likely going to work in now?
Because who knows when people are going to go back to the office? Or if that's ever going to. I think it's going to be home based with maybe a little bit of office space down the road. Yeah. A lot of offices aren't even going back to work. Like I was talking to some of my friends, large offices.
They may keep people working from home if they're remotely, if they can. But a lot of people are looking at me like, how can I improve my house? So, that's really interesting as well. What are your thoughts?
Alfonso: Yeah, absolutely. And especially, Daniel was talking about the competitive markets. So, when you're selling and you don't really need it, just really put a for sale sign on it these days and somebody will come take a look at it. But I think Sarah's point is everybody's taking a second. About where they live. Because before, if you were commuting or if you were working in downtown Toronto, that condo was great because it was easily accessible.
No commuting, anything like that, but now people are maybe spreading out and why these smaller towns, and I forget the name that you mentioned there, but maybe are having this type of competitive nature. And when you're there and you're where we were in quarantine for a bit, and you're stuck around that pink color, really start to hate it or that landscaping oh man like you want to change it up and just getting that cabin fever.
Like adding some curb appeals that value and really taking more of that pride and home ownership. I know what the rental owned strategy, that's a huge thing for our tenant buyers and our clients is that they are now making that house essentially their home. They're decorating landscaping, all that kind of stuff and improving that. Yeah, that's definitely a huge thing.
Laurel: Yeah, some of the properties, the long-term rental properties that Danielle and I own, we are actually. Improving the landscaping because it was, it's a good time to do it right now. And because we can see it's going to do nothing, but add value to the property and they do with these properties. Do you happen to be around where we live? That kind of makes it easier, but it's, we're going to do it.
Alfonso: Yeah. It's well worth it. I think.
Daniel: I want to pick up on something that Sarah just said there, you were talking Sarah, I'm sorry. I'm just going to switch gear for a minute here. But I had a call yesterday from one of our people who was coming to our events all the time and she said, oh, when are you guys going back to the live events? The webinars are fine, but I want to talk to people I want to hint, and so she made me think of that then, and that, and then you said something here about people going back to their office and stuff. All I've heard in the last about two months is people closing down their offices. People are actually moving now.
I had two friends who actually work downtown Toronto, and they lived in Scarborough and they are now looking at moving to around Colbert because they don't need to work. And their office has already told them they are not restarting in the office. So, what I want to tell people, we're watching this tonight, for those of you who are sitting there and just stomping your feet, okay. When are we going to live? When are we going to live? When are we going to live? Not for a while.
I'm sorry to say, but this is what we're doing here and what everybody else is doing. This is the new reality and it's going to be for a while. We were discussing before the session here about the number of cases that are increasing in the province. Already a friend of mine on the second day at school, they already found some of the students who were positive. Just watch it.
It's only a matter of time before things will start to shut down again. And who knows the second wave for who knows at some point it could. So, it's going to be a long time before we all shake hands like this. That's like events and stuff like that. This is the new normal guys. Get to be happy with that and live with it. That's the reality. That's how it's going to be.
Sarah: I will say, I am so happy and you have a cottage too, but I'm so happy with my cottage. Cause I got to enjoy it for a long time during the summer, but it's also really like it's insane. How many people want to rent it? I got another 15 days between the end of October to November and I've just put up my prices because I'm like, what if the borders are gonna remain closed, which they likely will.
Probably they should, just because of the numbers, we don't want to shut down completely. If we opened up the borders potentially to the US and then have all the cases, but I will tell you that a lot of people are trying to get away somewhere and it's safer to go to the cottage versus maybe take a flight somewhere warm at this point in time.
If you guys have cottages and you want to make some good cash I'll tell you, there is a lot of demand and unfortunately, to buy a cottage right now. So, hard because I've been trying and I've been outbid on every single one, one for 275,000 above asking cash. I can just stop. I can't compete. But from a rental standpoint, if you've got the recreational properties in the cottages those are doing well.
Alfonso: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll talk specifically to the cottages that we rent out in Port Stanley, and now we're up to 10 cottages up there and none of them are beachfront or lakefront or anything like that, but they're all within, five minute walk to the beautiful beach out there.
And I'm telling you guys I was looking for two, I might do two weeks or three weeks up there. Booked up so quick and I'll even, we opened up the 2021 schedule guys. It's 75% booked with deposits, maybe even 50% deposits for next year. So, to Daniel's point, he will continue on and those staycations and those rental, or sorry, those short-term rental vacation type properties that maybe you have currently in your portfolio, combining that with improving it, or maybe adding some new features to it or adding things that are to super maintenance or anything like that. But that is a huge premium.
Like I said, like who thought of raising a premium from September to November right? Obviously the summer months in Canada, we have two hot months like summer. It's very hot in the winter. But now it's a huge thing. And I think maybe talk about when you are looking for those properties. We're looking specifically at Port Stanley so that we can continue to manage what we have, but when you're looking for that, short-term over that vacation property. What are some things that you want to check off on that box?
Sarah: When I'm looking to buy?
Alfonso: Yeah.
Sarah: For me, it was just important to have really good terms. So, work with your mortgage broker. We've got some great mortgage brokers here, as well as part of our team. And they're gonna be able to help you, but for me, it was important to get a four season because it allowed me to put 20 down, get 30 year amortization and to get the best terms and rates.
We've got Claire Drage, we've got Brian Hogben and we've got Butler Mortgages as well. So, Windrose, Butler, Mission, 35 those guys can help you with the cottage piece. But the fourth season was important. The two hour drive was important from the city. So, nothing too far between self-service and internet, believe it or not that's the one question I get asked now, hey, I'm going to be going for a staycation, but work at the same time.
How's your internet? So, the internet is super important. I like the waterfront personally, but I know you don't necessarily have a waterfront and you do good with it as well. But for me, four bedrooms is easy because I can get a premium and so they can have two or three families. What else? Just comfort.
I have air conditioning and there's a list there's like probably 20 things I look for in a cottage. But also ultimately I would just say the main one is four season self-service and internet. And then can I add value to it? Is it ugly enough with good bones to get the lift?
Alfonso: I love it.
Laurel: I just had a thought and it just crossed my head. Cause I know that people are hard to find and RVs and trailers and campers like, oh my God, you can't even buy one, but it just crossed her mind. And it'd be really interesting to find out if you, cause I know provincial parks, I think you can book for three weeks. So, you probably have to book now for next summer. So, what if you put your trailer or whatever out there. I wonder if you could actually run to that.
Sarah: Maybe if there may be some rules.
Laurel: There might be some rules. What about the private campgrounds?
Alfonso: This is a perfect example day. None of us have a solid answer either way, REITE club nation, we're putting it out to you, that if you have any information about provincial parks, renting, things like that, share it, get on the forums, get on the forums, get on our community. We want to know that stuff to share it with people. So, maybe there's a creative idea just of us sitting around, talking about it.
Sarah: What else has a really cool creative idea? You've got 11 cottages, I've got a cottage. You guys really have cottages. We could rent to each other. And you never know what's going to happen with Airbnb. There's always those questions. There's always those changes. Look at Toronto and what they're doing now they're passing it so that you have to register your units.
They're making it harder. Granted there's pros and cons to everything, if we don't have it on Airbnb and we have this circle of people that we trust. Potentially, we could all rent cottages to one another, or you guys can rent out your cottage and have some good people that will do.
Alfonso: Yeah. And in most cases, yeah, a lot of through our network, friends, family, and friends and family of friends and family that's, that's really who we prefer. We actually put it out to our list first to say, Hey guys, we're gonna put it up to the general public in a week or two or three.
Grab your dates if you're interested and what better place, right? Again, I'm going to keep saying guys, get onto the REITE club community website, and take a look at it. Put some forms up there. If you have a place to put it up, right? Like why not? Take a look at it, see if other people are interested, throw some pictures up there, like why not?
Let's talk and see. Cause that's a great idea because number one, you're probably looking for that, stay work vacation type of thing. And just to change the scenery, those four different walls really help out. When some people like to hate going to the office. Now, I hear people talking about oh, I just need to get out of the house for a couple of minutes or a day just to change up the scenery.
So, why not use the power of the network? We always talk like you, the network is so powerful and everybody in the REITE club nation. Yeah, put that up there. Great suggestion, Sarah. Awesome.
Laurel: So, we just wanted to mention something about building inspectors, because we always said, we talked earlier about a lot of offers going in with conditions and we never ever buy something without having an inspection. I think that's just a recipe for disaster if you do that. But Daniel had an interesting conversation, right?
Daniel: Yeah. With Alan, my question to him was and this is part of something that's going to be posted on our site at some point soon there, where we're talking about your power came in, who you need in your power team, et cetera. So, I'm talking to Alan and I'm asking him, what are the five questions you should ask a home inspector before you hire him? So, 2, 3, 4, 5, no surprise. Experience blah, blah, blah, blah, equipment and blower. Okay. Number one, and I have never done that in the 62 properties we'd done is ask the inspector if he has E and O insurance.
Alfonso: Errors and Omissions. So, what would be the Benefit if they do, or if they don't?
Daniel: Because if you take them to court and you sue them for, and this has happened in front of actually my family doctor just bought a house in Hamilton and just found out two weeks later that there was vermiculite in many parts of the house, the inspector missed it.
He's going to sue the inspector. If the inspector has insurance, it will help otherwise. You can end up suing somebody for 50, a hundred thousand dollars, whatever. And then if the guy who could go bankrupt could ignore it, whatever. But if you have instruments, that's different. So, I never ever thought no, all our lawyers that we deal with, I am buying, right now because I'm teaching a course. And everybody said if you teach a course and people might misinterpret what you're saying and no insurance. I never thought that I should ask that of an inspector.
Alfonso: Yeah, that's a great question. And I thought we were going to go a little bit of a different direction because I heard of people doing pre-inspections right. So, when they actually set up a viewing for the property, they're bringing their inspector and it's like a half inspection right along that, but the E&O insurance is huge. Now, I don't know if they'd do that on the pre-inspection they've wanted.
Laurel: Actually, you can ask your inspector if you have insurance. If yes, great. If not, why not? And I'm going with somebody who has it.
Alfonso: Yeah, absolutely. And again, depending on the strategy, right? Like I know we have some amazing flippers that really only leave up the foundation in some walls. And then they leave everything out. So, it's no problem, rip it out. But again, if you are looking to do some cosmetic stuff, you want to do that inspection, you want to take a look at it cause you want to know what can of worms you're getting into it all looks good, right? Wallpaper, all that kind of stuff. But you want to take a look at electrical, the major systems of the house, electrical plumbing foundation, roof, all those types of things, windows, you want to get in there. And insurance is huge.
That inspector's really taking time to go through that because if they're not, then at least they have something a mechanism to cover that. But again, we talked about can't believe how quickly we got to September, mid September to boot. So, kids are back in school, kids, students, I should say are back in school, but young old, but we're talking about the students that are away from their homes and need to be close. I know some classes, most, I think are online, but there are labs and in-person classes that you do need to attend and be there in person, especially the sciences and those types of things. I know Daniel, Laurel, you guys are doing some student rentals and you guys are in the Niagara area or thinking about it.
Laurel: We're going to do some student rentals and we didn't. Thank goodness. However, we live in a neighborhood which is very close to one of the Niagara college campuses and they might say Mike university and Brock university. Yeah. What I noticed over the summer was that a lot of the houses were for student rentals. It's so like you couldn't even blink when the song went up, sold.
What I'm seeing that is that in the short term, okay, people from Toronto and the GTA and wherever are coming out to the Niagara area and snapping up these properties, and of course prices are going up, but what's going to happen in the mid to long-term in one year, two years, three years, when this is all over, cause it will be over and people start going back to, a more regular life where students live in student housing, there is not going to be in the student. Housing will not be enough. So, you watch like the rental prices are going to go up and are just going to skyrocket.
Sarah: But I think long term rates. We don't know what's going to happen short term. Likely, it's going to be turbulent probably for the next year, but who knows if it's gonna go down, if it's going to be crazy. We don't know, but in the long-term we just have to keep looking at the fundamentals and in the long term, things will resume back to a normal kind of level.
Student rentals will become student rentals and profitable. Again, Airbnb has a lot of people that are now going term. I mean, that's a short term strategy, but that's going to come back at some point. It'd be a great strategy again, down the road
Alfonso: And to your point, the shortage I've, I don't live in the Niagara area. I'm in Hamilton, not too far. I do visit out to Niagara and been out there and some family out there and Brock University, as shovels in the ground and is erecting buildings that I was going to house students. So if a university. It's that old student housing is over. No one, everything's going to be online.
It's like when email first came, right? No, one's going to send letters anymore. All the mailmen are going to lose their jobs. Sorry to tell you there's still mail, maybe less. But now even universities are still building buildings to house students. And growing their campuses. So, if you do have those in those areas, and like you said, everybody was selling them and I knew some people that live near them and they're all just empty and they're going, oh, it's great. None of the students are here. It's all empty. But again, I think it will like you said, we'll return.
Laurel: There's some interesting stuff happening with student rentals in the next few years.
Alfonso: And I absolutely, I think Canada has some of the best secondary education. I know we always talk about you don't need that for me, but for certain things, if you're a doctor, a lawyer should definitely go to university. That's who I would want to work with if they did, but you're going to have those classes, those courses that people are still gonna need to live on campus.
Laurel: Yeah, the wine making, the spirit making, the beer making, and, there's that cannabis making stuff, just making cannabis, growing and pot making. They actually have a whole diploma on that. So, interesting. And you can't do that online. It's very high to ask.
Sarah: I switch it up a little bit too, from the winemaking and all that good stuff, because I love the pot making, not so much
We had Ronald from Property Pathways on our podcast yesterday and he was talking about basement conversions, duplexing units. And I'll tell you even just working with some of the contractors, there are some that are better, more backed up than others. And there's also some cities that he was saying are more friendly towards duplexing and getting a secondary suite than others.
One of the things that I think is still a great opportunity, especially in these markets that we haven't seen much shift in the price, but getting a con single family converting it, setting your own rents being able to reset the rents, and cashflow, when you're buying a house that's a little bit more expensive. It's still good, but just understand ahead of time before you get into it, how backed up those cities are. Because for example, like Hamilton, they haven't been this backed up for a while, but to get your permits and everything you're waiting a lot longer. And you just finished a BRRRR you're waiting a lot longer. I've heard this before.
Alfonso: Yeah, absolutely. We closed on the property. It was the middle to end of February I believe. I think it was family day, actually close on his family day in February. And it was just as everything was going right in the middle of the shutdown. Luckily, supplies and contractors and things like that were working. There was a small period, but yeah like I have to think again, we have amazing partners and people that you've heard names and just a quick reminder.
Actually, two of those people that I worked with one-on-one were Dylan Suitor from Elevation Realty and Ken Bekendam. They helped me through that process. And luckily the permitting went really smoothly. Why? Because we worked with experts that had done it before and knew what to anticipate and actually knew who some of the people were from the city by name. And they're like, Hey Mario, Hey, how's it going? We need this. And anticipate that.
When you are thinking about disposing of a property or holding a property, if a rental is not there and having that built up, make sure that you're accounting for that in your numbers that, hey, it might take an extra month or two or three just for the permitting process. And build that into your numbers because you don't want to be getting on your back foot already and then having additional expenses, not anticipating that stuff. Cause there seems like there's a few things, right? Like the supplies permitting, right? So, it seems like there's this pent up man and there's just like a wall. Then we just keep pushing over until we have those new procedures that have been replaced.
Daniel: And Sarah mentioned something earlier to compound the problem. So, now you get your permit four months later than you thought. And now the contractor tells you guess what all the lumber, everything I need is back orders. So, a three month flip turns into a seven month flip or eight month flip. Ouch. Yeah.
Sarah: Hard money. If you're like with a bank, that's one thing, you're paying a lot cheaper than a private lender. So, just make sure that you factor in that time into your profits. Because it can cut it.
Alfonso: I just want to interrupt really quickly and thank you Katherine for sending over a couple of notes from our REITE club community. That's joining us again. Thank you guys so much George Dube, BDO Canada. Thank you, George for joining in tonight, he wanted to mention that for Ontario realtors, there's new and awesome tax savings and deferral opportunities available.
As of October 1st, we're going to be talking with George. We're also gonna be talking with Carson Law, keep tuned in for that. So, if you're tuning in today on the 30th, right? Sorry on the 30th. Oh, sorry. So sorry. September 30th. Yeah we're going to be talking about that for professionals, realtors on some of the benefits of that.
If you are, and you want to get a little bit ahead of the game, reach out to George at BDO, you can find his contact info on our online community as well. And this is how amazing our REITE club community is within what, like seven minutes, eight minutes. We put a question out there to the world and we get an answer.
Gretchen, thank you so much. She says there's no rentals allowed property depending on the park and because she's been a trailer owner. So, that's awesome. So, the four of us didn't have that experience. I'm sure a few more people on the call tonight didn't know, or couldn't answer that and look at that. And we put that out there and we got an answer to some Gretchen.
Laurel: Is that just for the provincial parks? Cause there's a whole bunch of private parks.
Sarah: She says it probably depends on the park. So, check with your park. Some people have rules, some parks have rules that you cannot do no matter what. And then some rules.
Alfonso: Yep. And the website you want to get to is BDOinvestor.ca. George is posting all the info tomorrow. So, thanks for always taking care of the REITE club community and us as well too. So, thank you so much.
Daniel: Sarah, you mentioned that, Alfonso I just finished a BRRRR. That's your specialty BRRRR. What's happening in the BRRRR world right now?
Sarah: It's still happening. There's, just like the craziness of the market, there's still investors out there that are looking for these properties. Again, we're just not gonna be buying something that doesn't make sense to do, but it's still working. It's just a process where you just gotta factor in the time you got to factor in the time from the city that you might have to extend the project by and just figure out what's in shortage, with your contractors and those people that are gonna help you with the permitting. But I just finished one with the Burlington property.
We did two units, Rob and Joel from White Elm, finish that for me, it looks beautiful. It's actually listed on Airbnb. I had a company that is going to be sending three of their executives from BC to Ontario. And they're gonna be renting it for the next three months.
You know how I did that. So, just to give you guys some numbers I bought that for 690, with Rachel from Elevation, ARV for 890 and I'm renting one unit for 130 to 140 and the other one for 130 to 140. So, the upside is really good. And then I'm going to actually be renting the whole house to the company. They're just gonna be paying 4,500 bucks a month, which is cool. It's not 5,000 to 7,000 a month, which, but it's going to be more hands-off than doing the whole Airbnb thing until just January, February next year.
I'm super excited about that. And I think that is going to be an opportunity. So, the BRRRR is still a great opportunity but there's going to be a lot of people who are taking their Airbnb income or they're wondering when the tourists are going to come back. But I think there's still a lot of demand for people that are in transition. So, think about this REITE club community, some realtors will have other people that they know clients that are waiting for their house to be finished being built or in the middle of construction.
I've got people there right now. They have a house and they're closing. They want to stay for two weeks just to get a few little things ready, and then they're going to be gone. But there's a need for I think people that are in transition for housing, reach out to your realtors rather than putting on Airbnb. Not that you can't, you can do it, but think outside the box as well. So, in terms of strategies, I think it's still a good strategy. I think in the future, we're going to see some opportunities in my opinion, with even just regular buy and hold and maybe very minor renovations needed down the road. Not right now. I think right now we're still looking.
Laurel: And that's really interesting. Cause we have a property that was an executive rental and we had great tenants and we had people from all over. We just, a family from Spain, were there for a year. And then, they had to go back home after a year and understandably. So, we looked at it and we thought, okay, what are we going to do?
We reached out to some people and we're actually converting the executive rental into a three-year lease. Somebody came along and said it was a referral, private referral. We want the place they're coming out of Toronto. Oh, there you go. And yeah, so we're not gonna make as much as if it was an executive rental, but it's three years. It's furniture actually buying the furnishing. There you go.
We're lucky that maybe doing a secondary suite, but a lot of money, a lot of issues to deal with a long-term lease like that, we really don't have to worry about it. I'm really confident nothing's guaranteed, but I really like these people and they really checked out well. And again, it's just thinking about differently because we did have an executive rental model and I thought wait a minute, what does it have to be an executive rental? And once these people go in three years, hey, they can take the furniture. We can turn into regular Rachel, or we can do executive all over again.
Alfonso: Well, and that's it. And there's probably some people on the call here tonight that maybe have that dwelling, that they were doing as a single-family. And again, I bought a property specifically. I have to thank Sarah and the power team of the REITE club.
And again, like I mentioned, it was. Yeah, I was a rookie at this, right after buying a hundred or over a rental. Oh I had no idea what to do for the BRRRR and had some idea and it was amazing experts. And that's why in just a couple of weeks now, I think it's actually a weekend event on September 19th and 20th this weekend. Sorry guys. I don't have my calendar. I don't have the triple screen in front of me. I feel they get it right now, but yeah, September 19th and 20th we're doing the additional dwelling units and that's put on by the wind city investors group, Ken Bekendam, Dylan Suitor, Savio he's part of the investors group.
It's going to be two days of going through exactly what you need to think about. If you're going to be doing this, whether you have a property, you want to look to acquire property, to do this, maybe converting one that you have, right. And going through all those points. This is the stuff that we love to do that necessarily maybe I don't Sarah you're right into it. And that the BRRRRs and changing strategies, but why not talk and hear from the people that are doing it consistently.
This is how they make their livelihoods guys. This is what they do. All those people I just mentioned are doing this full time. This isn't just a hobby or something on the side. This is what they're doing. Full-time and there, there are going to be more than generous to give their time this weekend coming up September 19th and 20.
If you haven't checked that out, make sure to register. We're going to close the registration soon. We're almost at the max, so make sure to get on there tonight, if you haven't and yeah, I'm going to be interested because I'm going to look back and maybe see all the things I did wrong. As well as the things that I like. Oh yeah. Okay. Nailed that one.
Sarah: The best way to learn is by doing it and learning from your mistakes, hopefully they weren't very expensive mistakes and learn from other people's very expensive mistakes, but no matter what, you'll always make some types of mistakes and you get better and better each time. But that is the way to learn to just go ahead, learn what you can and apply it, take it into action.
Alfonso: And a quick shout out to Ken, to Dylan, to Rachel, Alex Powell as well too. There's a few people, Sarah, you had a few of those calls. Like it's frantic. I don't have any hair, but it was like those out-hair moments where I was like, oh my God, what do I do?
And it was just like, okay. They called me down. I talked to the people that have gone through it. And then I was like, oh, okay. I feel good about it. And that's what it's about getting that information and then taking the action. Sorry again, Daniel.
Daniel: It's okay. I just want to add to what you just said. Laurel was talking about that house where you have one of the houses we have in Grand Lake. And we were looking at earlier in the summer because the people who were going back to Spain left at the end of June. So, now all of a sudden it's empty in July. So, we look at this and we go, hey, this is the perfect time to bring in a contractor and do a full basement conversion to a separate department because of noise, dust and everything, the house is empty. Why don't we do it now?
I called them the guy, a contractor. Yeah. What's the word? Not a contractor, but not Mr. Fix-it, but a general handyman. He does everything and yet has done three apartment conversions. So, in other words, a house where you just want to add a bedroom and a family room, and you have done three of those for us, beautiful works. So, we thought let's call him. So, he looked at it, came back to us and said, oh, 40,000 - 45,000 each to do that. And we said, okay, fine. But then he had some issues. He said, I don't know what to do about this or about that.
What people don't understand as well until you get into it. There's a huge difference between taking a house and just adding a basement and taking a house and adding an apartment. Cause now you're turning it into a duplex with, of course, all the fire, the sound, the size of the windows, parking and so on. So, we called in Ken Bekendam. He came to our place. He spent an hour and a half. And by the time you left, we're going, no, we're not doing that because now it's more like 65,000 and because of the location anyway, I don't want to get into the details.
Sarah: Guys, that probably saves you a thousand dollars.
Laurel: Yeah, Daniel's hair cause I want to pull up his hands.
Alfonso: There's a different Alfonso haircut on Daniel.
Daniel: So, bottom line is again, when in doubt, I mean don't guess something like that if you don't guess. So, you call the right people to come back and they are on my list there and get his advice and his help. It's well worth it. So, now we're not even thinking about doing that.
Alfonso: Absolutely. Get the information and learn from the best out there. That's going to get you 80% of the way you can read every single book about BRRRR and talk to Sarah for hours and and she's got amazing content and courses and you can talk to amazing people in the regular community, but if you don't actually take the step and go through it, like I've heard Sarah talk about BRRRRs for three years. And I was like, I thought I knew what a BRRRR was.
And then I bought a property closed on a property, got permits, did all the construction, did all that kinda stuff. Oh, wow. Okay. Like then you really get to feel it and you get that knowledge when you actually go through and experience it guys. It's well worth getting all the information and knowledge, but that's only going to get you to a certain point, take action because you're not alone out there. You will not be the first person to buy a real estate investment property. I promise you, you will not be the last person. So, don't be worried about that.
Sarah: So, I want to take a little bit of a change and ask you guys cause you all do rent to own. And just to see how things have progressed since March onwards with the rental owned business and what's happening in that market.
Laurel: I know at least to fight it out.
Alfonso: I know luckily, Daniel and I were having a nice spirited conversation about the strategy and what's going on. And we're actually in a couple of weeks, Daniel is actually going to be on a panel for the care of the rental owners association Canadian association of rental and professionals. So, I'll let you take it Daniel and give you your point of view, age before beauty. Yeah,
Daniel: There's another saying, but I can't say that. Yes, actually right now I am putting my rental business on hold. It is too crazy, at least in Ontario, over the next few days, I already have some calls with top brokerages and other provinces. And I'm going to see what they're saying or what's happening over there. I would not be thinking about doing that if it was buy and hold because buy and hold, at least I feel that you need to be relatively close. I don't mean next door, but certainly not 3000 miles away, but rent to own is such a different animal that we've done seven deals in Halifax. And we haven't been announced.
In fact, since 2012, we've started deals there, we've run them, we've sold them, we've closed them. We have a team they're renting to own that is not like buy and hold at all. So, we're looking at a couple of other provinces. The one East and one West of Ontario where awfully the market does not so crazy because from my point of view and Alfonso may have a different opinion, but based on that house we sold, like I said, a month ago and Kitchener, $80,000 over asking, there is no way that I would be buying that house for a tenant buyer for three year deal cause I can't imagine that what it might be worth in three years, even if it goes flat or goes down, I can't solve.
Sarah: Because of the crazy market that you don't want to be in Ontario?
Laurel: Yeah. It's just, when you look at the numbers, it's pretty risky for the tenant buyer, because if the price is really flattened or they go down a little bit, then they're locked into a contract and have that a certain price. And the bank's not going to give you the mortgage based on all kinds of factors. So, really got to think it through.
Alfonso: Yeah, absolutely. And I definitely do have a differing opinion from Daniel where I don't want to say doubling down on the business, but we're what we're doing is we're really focusing on the underwriting of our clients the same way that everybody's like up in arms and happy that, okay, the bank rates, they don't, oh, I got 1.8, oh, I got 1.78, I got 1.72, and everybody's treating that. And the money is really cheap right now, but I always say as mortgage rates qualify and the bar to get the money it's higher. So, it's oh, it's a free gym. And it's only open for 15 minutes from midnight to 12:15 but it's free.
What we're doing is really doubling what we brought. It feels like I would love to say that we were preparing for this, but we brought all of our underwriting, our client specifications in-house. So, we have the mortgage specialist, the credit specialists, all of those. So, we're really banking on those clients that are strong enough that have that potential to qualify.
Now, again, we never had control of the market. Okay. Whether prices go up or go down, we never have control of the market, but we're always using very conservative appreciation rates. And again, this isn't the first time I know, again, being lucky and Daniel and I have both been part of the rental association now. I think for four and five years, respectively, we had counterparts where prices did flatten or even in some cases dropped.
There were precautions that they put in place agreements, extensions with the clients. And that's the other thing too. And I'm going to speak on behalf of what I do on rent to own. It's not, hey, you can't qualify old, dude. You're dead to me and move on. Our goal is to help deserving Canadians become homeowners.
If it does mean a delay or an extension, like again, market prices go up and down an upward motion. Yes, you can't time the market time in the market, all that kind of stuff. But if we need to extend a program. So, to wait until that appraisal comes back up or prices go back, we're going to work with that client. We're not just going to have a mass exit to be honest with you. It's more of a headache that we have clients that want to live in those houses.
We can extend the program or continue to rent to them. Wait, till those things come back, hold, maybe a private loan of the difference of maybe that appraisal comes short of 30 or 50 or something thousand dollars in between. Yeah, we've definitely taken a look at that and that. I love having these conversations in counterpoints, because if you're just stuck in your own tunnel and your own way of thinking, and you don't have kind of diversity and someone saying no blue is better than gray, and gray is better than green and you have those things, it actually strengthens your own point of view if you have counterpoints and things like that.
Definitely after tonight, I'm going to book some time with Mr. St. Jean over there, and we can go back and forth and maybe you'll see it on a podcast or a webinar and things like that. How we can talk about, what's going to go on and things like that, because it is good to talk it out, to see what those things are, because I don't think of everything that Daniel thinks of definitely not.
Sarah and Laurel, we have amazing people part of it. You met Francois tonight. We have Katherine, we have Paul, Bruce's here tonight as well to live in action, shout out to outreach. And you want to have all those different people. We've mentioned it, the power team, those people talk to those people, see what's going on. Completely stuck in your own thoughts. I challenge you to go and meet somebody or talk to somebody at least that has the exact opposite thought. And just hear them out. If your point is so strong, you shouldn't be scared to talk. So, that's what I got to say on that.
Sarah: We're going to switch it up. I just want to go to the chat and guys, thank you for participating. Feel free to keep adding questions and keep talking. We had a question from, or actually it was more of a statement from Jolanta just about a lot of people repaying their mortgages. So, they've deferred them. Now, they're going back and clear from Windrose, just confirmed mortgage deferrals or down from 30 plus percent. That was a lot of mortgage deferrals, and now most people are paying them so only 5% are still deferred.
That's actually good news. So, thank you, Claire for jumping in there. And then Jolanta, I thank you for participating. And you mentioned the rent increases yet. So, there's some talk and I think it's pretty much where there's going to be no rent increases for 2021, but here's the thing. What was 1.8% or 2.2%, which was a lot anyways. I know it's something and we have to do the increases but it's just unfortunate. And I was watching something from the golden mail. Earlier today it was a presentation.
They had people from the landlord groups and the tenant groups, and it was, and I found that it was very, pro tenant. And there's not anything wrong with that, but here's the thing, Mike, I have a concern about that. If all of a sudden we are seen as the big, bad rich landlords, and we are the small landlords that are amalgamated into all of these bigger businesses. And now we can't do this. We can't do that.
We, we're like getting our hands slapped for so many things. Now, we can't do these rent increases. I'll tell you, I worry that landlords are going to say if I can't increase, am I going to be fixing this? Am I going to be upgrading this? I don't think that this is the right move. What is $20 a month? $25 a month? That gets nothing. But you're like, I think that sometimes the government does like little things to just piss us off a little bit more. And they're not thinking of the consequences, what for twenty-five dollars a month really? Let us do the increases. They're so small anyways.
Alfonso: Yeah. And honestly, this is not a political conversation. I'm not getting on that plane, but there's definitely a lot more renters than landlords. So, that means a lot more votes. And those are the type of things to get people at the voting station and saying, oh, they didn't raise the increase. So, why are food prices being left the same, right? Why isn't gas prices being frozen, right? How come those things aren't being done across the board?
And again, I don't want to get into voting. Yeah. Because it's exactly right. And Sarah makes a great point. There is a huge difference between the multi-national landlords that own building up their building and millions of units or even tens of millions of units versus the smaller landlords that make up the REITE club community that have 1, 2, 5, 10, 50 doors that are renting out to those people. And yeah, it is tough out there. How you go about to manage that again, if you have good clients and this is the thing that I worry about.
If you're not able to make that increase and now your heat, your hydro, your mortgage, all the expenses, insurance, all those things taxes are definitely going up, got a letter from the city of Hamilton. All those are going up, right? Counter what is going to motivate, and that is going to cause a problem is where are people going to live then?
Now, if your 10 units are in your 20 units and then all of the thing about all of the REITE club community of how many rental properties we have all of a sudden, and you don't think it's really going to go a hundred percent that we would just said, nope, we're done. We're not going to rent anymore. What's the government gonna do?
Sarah: Yeah. There's already a shortage issue, right? Like they're just, in my opinion, exacerbating it and just making it where more people are gonna want to get out of the game. And, or at some point go back to short-term rentals. So, if we can't, if our hands are locked and we can't do certain things to make her better or property better, or at least to say, okay, my taxes went up, my insurance went up I, at least I'm covering the increase at the end of the day. I like to be in this business but there's a lot of things and it comes down to votes. I think it comes down to votes, unfortunately. What your that's about it?
Laurel: Oh, yeah, I agree. It definitely comes down to votes and it's just really unfortunate because I've actually heard, and I can't remember who it was, but I heard an advocate. And I don't remember who it was. Anyway, she was talking about tenants. And she was saying that she represented various tenants. And she was saying that she really thought that the government was doing tenants a disservice by not allowing landlords to increase the rent because she thought that the government was well on its way to creating a whole bunch of slum landlords, because exactly what you were talking about.
Sarah: That, and also somebody is saying I had enough of this long-term thing. I'm going to take it. I'm going to go in the short term. I'm going to do executive rentals instead, or I'm going to get out of this market and I'm going to go into a different market. And so, we're going to have a shortage issue just to get worse and worse. I'll tell you one of the things that scared me a little bit on that globe and mail discussion they were talking about people like going up to market rent.
You got a tenant that moves out and then you go back up tomorrow. That is where we make our money. So, somebody moving out, that's paying $1,500 a month, but the actual market rent is 2,000 that helps us get to that lift. So, for me, it's actually important for a tenant, not to want to live in my properties for two to five years. Do you have a goal of moving into your own place? Perfect. That's my ideal tenant, but at some point, moving out helps us regain that, especially with all the increases that are happening for us.
Alfonso: Absolutely. And you know what, as we're getting to the top of the hour here and getting close to date, there's amazing questions coming in and thank you guys so much for putting those in. If we don't get to them, we're actually going to set up a separate form for every single one of the questions. Keep putting in the questions if we don't get to them now, cause we are wrapping up, keep putting. Ask any question you want, because I am confident with us, for as the founders and the REITE club community behind us. We'll get those answers. So, put those questions in and we're going to follow up on the online site theREITEclub.com. Just go to the forum section.
Daniel: Alfonso, we had a really good question today and I know we're getting close to the end there, but let's take two minutes to answer that question each and every one of us, the question that you pose Alfonso was what is something you never, ever thought you would do? And you’ve done it, now?
Alfonso: Oh, mine is an easy one. And actually you sent a great, really funny email that made me chuckle. It was wearing a mask into a bank and a bank actually requiring you to wear a mask. So, that's one thing I never thought I would do. Yeah. That's just a simple one. But yeah, that's my answer as well.
That was a great one. But yeah, again, I think it was really now you take commuting out of the equation and you have more time to reflect. I've been doing a lot of meditating, breathing, all those types of things where I've had the time where I'm not in a rush to get out of the shower.
And I know this hand looks pretty, but you got to shave it every couple of days. But yeah, having that time and really reflecting and doing more deep thought that I've had the time for. So, that's something that not that I never thought I would do, I've always wanted to do. And, Laurel, you've helped me so much out with mindset and in thinking about different things and looking at it from different angles and opposing thoughts. But yeah, having that more of that time and in slowing down a little bit and to take a step back to go further
Laurel: You know what? This is gonna sound really funny. Like before COVID hit, I was on a plane. Every month, at least I travel all over the place. And every time I drove to the airport. I go, oh my God, I hate airports. I discovered, I don't hate airports as much as I thought I did. I actually miss airports. There have been times when I've been in an airport, I traveled so much that I didn't know what airport I was in. I didn't know where I was going to the person, what was I going to go through?
He said, do you know where you're going now? And I just looked at him like I have a clue. I don't know what, just put me in the way, but I really miss traveling, but what I'm doing is I'm building up. All these places where I'm going. So, help me, God, I'm going. Yeah.
Sarah: I knew I was going to do this, but I sat down at my cottage and I started having more time on my hands. And I've had in the past where some days, working full-time and doing everything else, I might have an hour, a week of free time. And I said, why am I working a job and doing everything else, but everything else I'm doing at love.
And so, I decided to take that chance and the ability for, when I was looking at my portfolio and I was looking at everything else I had going on, it made sense for me to retire. So, I literally have two weeks left, October 1st is my final day. And then I'm retired from the whole nine to five corporate job world forever die and rolled over in real estate.
Laurel: Lots of stuff to do with the REITE club. All right, so we go, we've got to wrap up. So, our upcoming events Saturday and Sunday this week, yeah, September 19th and 20th. I keep thinking of a month, this weekend additional dwelling units when city investors group can back in them and Dylan's sooner and people can still register online.
Alfonso: Yeah, that's right.
Daniel: And then these guys know their stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: So, Wednesday, September 30th, we have a two hour virtual events don't forget to tune in and we have some networking that we're going to be adding afterwards. I know you guys missed the networking, but we're going to have some special networking after the event's podcasts. We've done some great podcasts.
September 18th, Robbie Clark is going to be airing on the show and those release Friday morning, September 25th, we have Francois who you just met earlier today. And you can hear all about his investing since he started even joining and listening to the club, how quickly he scaled his portfolio. That's really cool.
Alfonso: Yeah, really looking forward to that one, got some snippets and some some behind the scenes that it's from those. So, that's a really great podcast coming up. And again, kudos to Francois while I want to talk about the REITE club Facebook group. He has been integral in getting that up online, along with Paul Copcutt. Getting that Facebook online. Yeah, we are on Facebook, I called Facebook anywhere, but just another place where again, we can commute, connect and network and talk. We do miss the in-person and, giving hugs and seeing everybody and getting the energy up in the room.
The Facebook group, and again, we can't set it up theREITEclub.com guys. That is the place to be. If you want to know anything and everything about real estate, investing, business, personal growth and development, networking guys, the list is endless. There's more stuff on there that you will ever consume in your entire life.
Whatever piece, whatever corner, whatever you want to take from it, make it your own. It's your community. It's somewhere for you to grow. And we want to see that because one of you girls or five-year girls, or 10 of you girls, guys, we always, we all grow together. And we love seeing that. So, make sure it gets on the Facebook group, sign up now, say a load of Francois, say hello to us there. And definitely the REITE club community connects with all of us. I know I've been having some great conversations and people that, you book a phone call from the messaging and you do all that kind of stuff. It's been a great way for me to stay connected to our amazing community.
Daniel: And we're going to close this with some thank you because we all look good here. This looks so easy and stuff. Yes. We just moved in prior to this and we just sat down. Basically, we were ready. Why? Because we have Katherine, our operations manager who had everything lined up, everything prepared, everything designed for us. And then of course we add Mr. Bruce here outreach, who is doing the filming and all the lighting and everything else. And of course, Paul Copcutt, our guy who runs the show on the marketing and branding advisor and director.
Laurel: And he's sitting in another site and he's directing everything. It's just wow, we can't do it without you guys. So, thank you so very much. And thanks to everybody who comes because really ultimately this club is about you and your participation. So, thank you for joining us.
Daniel: Because, like I say many times in the live events, if you don't come and it's more evident than the live event, but even in an online event, if we, if you guys don't come and watch this webinar, it's four of us talking to each other a year and that would be pretty silly.
Alfonso: Yeah. So, we wouldn't be able to support them.
Sarah: REITE Club nation, thank you so much. Partners, thank you as well. See you guys, 19th and then September 30th. Bye.
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