Mel and Dave Dupuis are taking their innovative real estate investing financing formula outside of Canada. In this podcast episode they take you through their proven processes and strategies in choosing where, when and how to invest internationally.
Sarah: REITE club nation, welcome back to another awesome week of The REITE Club podcast. I'm Sarah Larbi and today my co-host is the wonderful Francois. How are you, buddy?
Francois: I'm good. Thank you very much. Being wonderful, I like it. How about you? Wonderful Sarah Larbi?
Sarah: You know what? I had a great time talking to Mel and Dave Dupuis, who have been on the podcast in the past, but we talk about Mexico and buying in Costa Rica and going into the US and in a market where there's a lot of changes. It is important to diversify, look outside, and have exit strategies for sure. But we talk about how to invest your money outside of the country. And they have built a great portfolio already in the last year in Mexico and Costa Rica and now going into the US. What is new and exciting before we bring in Mel and Dave?
Francois: I've also joined the Costa Rica bandwagon as some of and will know I'm also looking at the lease and Alberta. I'm expanding quite a bit. Pay attention to what Mel and Dave share. Alberta is a hotspot. Texas is on my radar, so lots of new things, but the most exciting one is my new best bus. You might see me on my red moped somewhere on a highway, but anyway, that's new and exciting. .
Sarah: Amazing, I think for me, just building out the retreat, the resort, we've got a retreat at the resort happening in August which is open, I don't know, by the time it airs, if there's gonna be any tickets left, but if you guys are interested, sending an email is going to the best retreat for real estate investors ever cause I'm organizing it with Harry James, aside from that, Costa Rica is on my list.
I'm currently negotiating something as well. Who knows, I feel like recently I've bought a bunch of stuff in Hamilton and Welland. It's been fun. And at the end of the day, by the time you guys are hearing this, I'm probably gonna be on the lake, not doing a whole lot. I do a lot for I would say October to April and then I shut it down.
Francois: You're customizing your life. That's our slogan. That's the whole point of doing this.
Sarah: You know what? I don't wanna do nothing for the entire year and I don't wanna be busy for the entire year. To me, this is my customization, and the REITE club nation feel free to customize your life and let us know how you are customizing your life. Maybe there's some great ideas out there. If you are interested in being a guest on the podcast, and you've been a long time listener, you're part of the REITE club nation and the REITE club community.
Let us know about your story. We'd like to feature some fresh faces and voices and definitely like to learn from so many people around Canada and potentially outside of Canada. But on that note, Don't forget to leave a rating and review and check us out online. We have lots of events in the fall. We are going back to in person events, as well, check out thereiteclub.com. Go to the calendars event section and everything will be there on that note. Let's bring in Mel and Dave Dupuis.
Francois: Hello, everyone, especially welcome investor Mel and Dave. I'm really excited to have you guys on and we have a bit of a special relationship. I'm glad to hear about what you're up to. What's new and exciting with you guys and welcome. I heard something about Costa Rica a little while ago. I've seen it on social media. Could you tell us more about what's happening there?
Mel: Yes, and hello, thanks for having us. Dave and I about the past year, we've been working on diverse buying our portfolio. Of course, we have a lot of properties here in Canada, but we're applying the strategies of buying through creative financing and no venture partners in different countries as well. And yes, we just came back from Costa Rica. We stayed at one of the places that we had purchased when we're still here in North Bay with a whole lot of snow here and negotiating a creative financing deal.
Sarah: That is really cool. Can I ask a question because I think, with the market and the economy and the uncertainty and what the government's gonna throw away, and all that stuff, I'm seeing more and more people invest elsewhere, why is that important for you? Why do you think that somebody might wanna consider that as well? What was your thought process along the way?
Dave: A great question, Sarah. I agree with you as things start to tighten up a little bit here in Canada, people are going outside of the border. The beautiful thing that we thought about Costa Rica is USD dollars, right? It's a tropical place. It's a vacation place. The lift that we're gonna be creating is in USD. Costa Rica, beautiful thing, actually Mel and I were just negotiating. I shouldn't even say negotiating back and forth to realtors.
One of the places we just closed. Couple of weeks ago someone else was interested and we're looking at maybe selling and already getting a lift. We're looking at the capital gains there, which I had looked at a while back. It's 15% and then you might have to add 2.5. So let's say even 17.5%. I'll take that all day, every day. I'm gonna become a flipper in Costa Rica.
Sarah: 50% versus 15%.
Dave: That's the thing. That was one of the reasons that attracted us, Costa Rica. We just love it. They're very parallel to, I should say Canada and the states in their structure. Their government is very parallel. People think that investing in other places is scary. It's a democratic country. You know what I mean? Like it's not as scary as people make it out to be. The 15% is obviously a beautiful USD.
That was the reason we're doing it in Mexico as well and in the US, but a lot of it is again, diversifying in our lane. Again, we know the real estate lane. No none of our own money, no joint venture partner, real estate in different places while making that USD money, and then we can buy anywhere.
Mel: I think this is sometimes it people progress with as well. Some people may feel comfortable going to different areas right away. I certainly didn't at first, cuz I wanted to learn how to do it a little closer to home. It's a comfort level, but it's also a nice goal for people to set themselves to as well. Maybe I'll buy a few places in Canada and then I'll go to the states and then I'll buy a place where I have to go and visit it once in a while, to check up on it. We have that benefit as well.
Francois: What a shame checking up on your house in January.
Mel: Life is tough as an investor. Isn't it?
Dave: Funny how it always falls in that January to March period, right?
Francois: Gotta check up on the roof and who knows what's going on there? You need to check the pool. I'm super curious. You guys are all about OPM. How did you fund those OPM deals in Costa Rica? Because it's a bit of a tougher market financing is not super available. You have to be creative. Somebody is as creative as you guys, I'm sure you found some awesome ways if you don't mind sharing some insights into that.
Dave: The most recent two or seller financing which is absolutely cool. When you think about seller financing, people think just Canada and the US, same exact thing. And then the down payment was promissory notes here from Canada. The cool thing with the seller financing there is both of them the most recent ones that we did, both of them our balloon payments. We're not gonna make any payments for the first one of them in two years.
One of them is three years with no payments. Obviously there's HOA and there's other expenses, but the actual mortgage payments, nothing for two years. Just very high cash flow interest only. I think they're around 5% and 6% and yeah, cuz it is hard to get financing there. I know there's one Canadian bank there, but then you have to buy it personally and it can only be up to five with all your Canadian assets as well. Anyway, we didn't wanna jump through those hoops, but that's why I went with the seller financing. That's how we've been doing it there.
Mel: And it's neat as well cuz you can do it on older properties. Like one of them is underperforming. We actually took an hour or so to see that one when we were there. But of course we had looked at it virtually, but it was at an underperforming property. We know that's the one that somebody who wants to buy already knows that we're forcing the appreciation type thing, or you can also do it with pre construction as well of course. There's a lot of different ways that you can purchase properties there. If that's something you wanna do.
Dave: Good call. The other one that we have is the developers holding most of the financing, right? Same thing, just insert developer as supposed to.
Sarah: This is so interesting because looking at a vendor takes back. First of all, let's just take Costa Rica for example, the resale market is not the same as a resale market. For example, let's call it Ontario. I think that there might be more appetite as well for somebody that is interested in selling that wants to sell, to be willing, to do more creative strategies. Maybe you can walk us through like how you got that conversation started with the seller.
Were you virtual on zoom? Did you go in person? Walk us through those steps so that somebody, club nation member can say, I'm gonna do the same thing that Mel and Dave did and here are the steps. Walk us through that.
Dave: These ones were both through a realtor. The thing with Costa Rica is there's no MLS. Like we're also used to just going realtor.ca and looking up whatever deal just got posted. There is no MLS for lack of better warning there. Let's say they have different realtors, like century 21 or Remax or different brokerages. That's where you're gonna find your realtors are going through there because, and something that's funny about Costa Rica.
Everyone's a realtor there. That's why you get the test. We're on a boat with our tour guide and he finds out we're in real estate and oh, by the way I'm a real estate agent. We're like why not everyone else? Anyway, it's just one of those. I say that with humor obviously, but it's fine.
The investor focused on realtors. That's once you know how to do it, you like, you could take Mel and I anywhere in the world and we'll find the investor focused people once you know how to do it. It was just rinse and repeat using the strategies and the tools to do and then let them find the deals for us.
Mel: And just making sure that you have your exit strategy as well. Especially if you're getting into creative financing, even more so in a place like Costa Rica where they don't have financial institutions. It is different from Canada in the states. You do need to know that as well. That's why I mention that maybe this is not necessarily your first place that you buy. It could still be, but maybe it's not as well, depending on your comfort level, but you do have to have that exit strategy on how to pay back the lenders, cuz yes we're getting this money up front, but of course we need to know before we accept the deal, how are we gonna pay them back?
That's always important to remember and I think it's important for the REITE club community to know that as well cause it's exciting. You wanna get into a vacation home they can go to and all that. But again, you wanna think as an investor and make sure that you have a well planned plan or a plan well laid out from the beginning.
Sarah: Obviously, the exit strategy is important. Having an exit backup strategy is probably something we also preach in Canada, but it's even more important to make sure that you keep it off our soil. But so just to wrap our minds around it, essentially the realtors, some properties that they know the seller is willing, is wanting to sell.
Maybe they've been on the market for a little bit longer than here. And then you would say, hey, we'd be interested, but on these terms, can you check with your seller if they're interested in this vendor take back, here's how it works. Is that the process that you took then with these two that you bought in Costa Rica.
Dave: Pretty much, once we had the team, once we found the investor focused realtor that we needed, then again, and we do it all the time. We role play with all our realtors all the time. It sounds a little silly, but it works right. We gotta keep them sharp so they can keep sending us deals. That's what they did. Whenever they're doing listings or if they're getting listings in the office, they start asking, cuz they know, hey, I've got a buyer.
If there's seller financing here or they start talking to developers who are willing to hold. Financing and developers will do it for a long period of time as well. Like the ones in Mexico. I think they're willing to hold up to five or six years.
Mel: Find out what's doable. What's flexible for them? How much interest rate do they need? What's their term? Are they open to having some kind of ballooning strategy, all those types of things that can really help you number one, get into the deal. And yet they're winning as well. Dave and I we're huge on win-win negotiations. Yes, we wanna get into places and yes, we wanna win, but we want others to win as well.
Francois: I love it and it's so true. This strategy can also work reverse as well. Dave, you mentioned your house, you already have a potential buyer or one of them. You guys could hold financing on it as well. You could flip the coin there and reduce your tax lenders in Costa Rica who knew that's it.
Dave: Francois, it's funny that you say that because the realtor knows, he said what, yeah, practice what you preach. I said, hey, tell 'em to make me an offer and we'll see. I might take that pro anyway.
Mel: And we've done that here as well in our own city where we of course purchased a lot of properties, but we've also held financing for other people. And I often get the question, but Mel, why would you do that? Because it benefits us. That's the same reason they did it. Somebody did it for us in the first place. And if you don't know why people would do that quite yet it's because interest number one year, I gotta pay them a certain amount of interest, whether it's upfront or MBN and tax benefits as well from a capital gains perspective.
If it's not listed already then I don't have to worry about an agent fee. And often the negotiation is in my favor, a seller with owner financing cause I might get my close, if not all my entire asking price as well.
Sarah: Those are all, some great benefits. Obviously from a tax standpoint now, if somebody's got a portfolio and all of a sudden, they're liquidating their 5, 10 properties or whatnot it probably makes sense not to have as high of a tax year and maybe defer some of them to year two, year three or four. This could be a strategy and I know we had obviously the more complex the deals are the easier it is to ask for a VTB.
In the typical, smaller residential types of properties, we haven't seen much of that. Like in the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years in Ontario. It's more like the bigger malls, the harder things to finance, the land development stuff, the conversions, the properties that just need so much work. I'm not saying that you can't find any of the smaller ones, but do you think that the potential shift in a market because there's market cycles.
We're probably going into a different type of market cycle. Do you think that's gonna open up some opportunities maybe for this type of lending of VTB. What do you think the opportunity might be for an investor coming, going in and looking out for the next couple years?
Dave: A great question, Sarah. I don't keep saying today, but these are literally the conversations that I had today with one of our mortgage brokers. I said, what are you seeing? What are the pros and cons of what's going on in the market right now? I said, just be honest with me. What do you think? We speak on probably every three days or so weekly. But he said, I like what I'm seeing. It's leveling the playing field.
There's a lot less, the seller has all the leverage and the buyer has to go in with no conditions. And then basically over asking price, it's starting to level things out. Now, he said, I'm seeing offers with conditions being accepted, I'm seeing financing conditions. It's just leveling the playing field which is why I like it. It's reducing the prices. Now, I know people are saying Dave interest rates are going on. How do I say this?
The deal still has to make sense whether the interest rate is 2% or whether the interest rate is 6%. Cuz now they're underwriting tighter. The deal still has to make sense. Like I said, it's just a piece of the puzzle, obviously now the other thing. Oh, what did he mention? He mentioned two things leveling the playing field and creative financing. Now, if there was a seller that wants succession planning, or wants to exit. Now, things are tightening up. If they still wanna exit that deal.
If they still want to move on to the next thing, they're gonna have to be open to not saying every deal's gonna be like that, but they're gonna be a lot more open to creative financing. In the creative financing world of things, I think it's only gonna get better and better for buyers that want to have the seller hold or have people do creative financing.
Mel: The thing is, as much as we're talking quite a bit about seller financing or vendor take backs today, there's so many different ways as well that you can leverage other people's money to grow. If I find an amazing deal, whether it's in Ontario or Alberta or in this States or in Costa Rica. If I can't get owner financing, but it's an amazing deal. I'll find another way to fund it as well. As for example, in Canada you can use some of these RRSPs to fund the deal.
There's a lot of people who have RRSPs and they are not necessarily happy with their current return on investment. That's why may be willing to explore funding you, their funds for a higher return or promissory notes as well. And of course, with that, you gotta make sure to have a very clear exit strategy and you should always want that for yourself anyhow, but where it's a win-win for them. They feel secure in the deal because it's very clear and they obviously are making a higher return than they could on their own.
Francois: That's amazing. You already entered the US market. That market has seen a lot more creative financing with the big crisis in 2008 and all kinds of things afterwards and Mexico as well. I have some questions about Mexico. A lot of people are scared to buy there because of the land concessions for concession land and all that stuff they're afraid of. Is it deeded land or all that? Same with Costa Rica. Some of the land is concession land. How did you guys go around that? Did you get deeded properties or how did that work?
Dave: Honestly, and yes, I know people when they say, oh, you're buying in Mexico. Aren't you worried? It's been harder to create our entities in Mexico and get things started there than it was in Costa Rica in all honesty. It was a lot more time consuming and a lot more hoop in my opinion anyway, than it wasn't Costa Rica actually. And then you just have to understand how things work and again, I'm gonna sound like a broken record.
We have the investor focused accountants, the international accountants, the international lawyers, the Mexican lawyers, and I'm just talking about our structures, and you don't have to get that complicated, but it's just understanding that Mexico and Canada have a treaty. You have to do certain things a certain way there. Canada and Costa Rica don't have treaties. Things change.
It's all these things that people don't think about. They just go, oh, I'm gonna go create an entity there and just start buying. It doesn't work that way. In regards to the deeded properties, oh gosh, I won't get too complicated, but you know this , but yeah, you can't necessarily, as a Canadian, I can't necessarily own the property there. It has to be through like let's say the bank or like the lawyer's office, they end up holding.
You just have to inform yourself. I won't dive too deep into that. But as long as you understand going in that, you'll never really own it. It's like here. I'll use North Bay, for example, Lake Nipissing Mel and I had looked at purchasing a short term rental house on the lake. It was on the indigenous lands.
I think it was like a 99 year lease. We would never end up owning the property, but we knew that going into it. It's the same concept there. But once you understand it and you have the investor focused people, which I know you're thinking, Dave, you keep saying that I keep harping on it, cuz it's so important. Mexico is harder to set up than Costa Rica.
Francois: It makes a huge difference to an investor focused team, cuz they know it's not, yes, it's a vacation home. Yes, you're gonna check it out in January, but it's also a business. It needs to be set up differently. It's not a cottage that you have by the lake and you just use it or not. This is a business that you're setting up. Mexico, it's also us dollars, which is amazing. Yes, there's pesos there's colonists, but again, it's us who fund us with our income and you have your US entities.
There's a lot of good things happening there. What's next for you guys? 2022, by the time this is released, we're gonna be halfway through the year. What's happening? This has been a wild ride, but I'm sure you have more in store.
Mel: It's been a lot of fun and we've really been focusing on diversifying our portfolio. We still are very much loving the cost rate gap. I think we're gonna continue to probably focus in the states as well. There's great places to invest there as well. Probably a combination of both continuing to grow in Costa Rica, maybe exploring some different places as well, where we're always in communication with different places and always looking at what would make sense, but I don't know if you have anything to add.
Dave: I like Alberta too. I'm always looking at deals out there. I just love how landlord friendly they are. After being in Texas and Florida and just seeing the rules there, it's wow, okay. I can live with this as an investor, right? But again, still respecting the tenants, but having a little bit more teeth to do some things. If things go wrong, people don't listen to the rules.
Sarah: Just looking at Ontario, and I don't know what Costa Rica or Mexico, or Ontario's very tenant friendly. Have you looked into the tenant landlord rules in Mexico and Costa Rica? What does that look like?
Dave: These are all short term rentals, just so basically as long as we didn't, oh gosh, what was it? Four or six months, as long as someone didn't stay past a third and don't quote me on that a certain threshold, they stayed into that short to medium rental and they didn't become a tenant. Like here with the Innkeeper act, right? Kind of like a hotel right here. They don't pay, they kick you out or if you make too much noise, they kick you out.
Mel: We had looked at a couple of different options, but for now our plans in those areas are Airbnb. But in the states we're gonna apply the same. We're looking at some different most family areas, but we are looking in specifically friendly landlord, friendly states because it does make a big difference. As I'm sure if you're from a province that is not as landlord friendly as others that you'll know naturally what that means. It is very difficult if there's an issue with the tenant, it's a very long process.
Sarah: I heard Texas was great.
Mel: Texas is great.
Dave: Don't quote me, but I think if they don't pay by the third, I went over this with the property. Anyway, I let them do it. They don't pay by something like the third. They have 10 days. If they don't pay within that 10 days, you basically apply to the sheriff and the sheriff removes them. It's just and again, do not quote me on that. I had the conversation a while ago, so do your own research, but even less than a month.
Sarah: We're looking at almost like 8 to 10 at this point in Ontario.
Mel: That's the thing like, can you still buy in Ontario? Can you still buy in provinces that I still have hundreds of units in Ontario, so yes, you can still, but make sure you do your numbers and make sure to calculate you need that safety because it's often a matter of time. You definitely wanna do your due diligence and make sure that if you're self managing how to do it properly, that you have the right property management company. Most importantly, that you're managing the property management company.
You have to make sure that you're actually Dave's saying that to somebody today that you were in a meeting and making sure that you're getting these reports to make sure that everything is on point. You still wanna have a little bit of involvement, but have that as part of your numbers when you're doing new numbers, if you're gonna be calculating, because again, it's a big expense. If it happens.
Sarah: Now, you're sharing tons of knowledge. You've done hundreds of unit deals very strategically. I believe you also offer coaching. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Mel: We have the action family mentoring program. It's a very large community and essentially our program. We teach you how to buy properties using none of your own money and without joint venture partners in Canada, the US, Mexico, Costa Rica, and some of our students are going to different places as well. There's a video portion. There's some, the
And then of course they get access to us inside the group and all that as well. But if anybody's interested in booking a call to find out a bit more, they can speak with one of our wealth advisors and the website for that, or the site for that is www.iamreadytoinvest.com. It's a very large network as well. We are up to what I think as of right now. We've been featuring one of our students for the past 85 weeks.
We had so much money that we did so for 85 weeks, but also one of you's been one of them as well. But yes, we've been featuring many of our students as well throughout the weeks. I think we're over a hundred, there's a list we can't keep how we can't feature every single person. But so the results are definitely there as well.
Francois: And like you said, it's a big community. It's a friendly community as well. I can testify as well. You make a lot of friends, so yes. You mentioned an investor focused power team. It's good to have other investor friends. I'm sure Sarah is the same when you're talking to your family or friends, sometimes you talk about real estate and they're like, yeah, I'm not interested. They're like, whatever so you need to have investor friends, power team and friends as well.
Sarah: The top five people you spend the most time with. You're spending some time with. Maybe they could be real estate investors from Mel and Dave's group. You've obviously started exploring other markets you're going into Texas. Are you also bringing in investors who are people able to invest with you or are you still just doing your thing at this.
Dave: We're still using Other People's Money. We're still raising funds in Canada and the states. In regards to the joint ventures, we're still solely owning. I don't know if that's what you meant there. We're still solely owning them.
Mel: If somebody has some private funds or some RRSPs that they wanna put to work.
Sarah: The next part of the podcast is the lightning round. We're gonna ask you four questions and you're gonna give us the first answer that comes to mind.
Here's question number one. Mel and Dave, you can answer separately or together, however you want. What is the best piece of advice that you have ever received from another investor or at a networking event?
Mel: For me, it would be, don't take advice from somebody who isn't somewhere where you are at a higher level than you wanna be at already. Always take advice from somebody who already has, is where you wanna be. It's very easy to take advice from other people, from some friends but surround yourself with the way you just finish speaking with five people to always make sure to pay attention to who you're taking advice from.
Francois: To my next question. You guys have done the lightning round before, so this one's gonna be a bit different in Costa Rica. What was your biggest takeaway, cuz I'm sure you've noticed some things. What would you say?
Mel: For me, my biggest takeaway, I just love being around the animals, seeing all the monkeys. We woke up to the monkeys and it was a little freaky at first cuz we weren't sure what those noises were. And it was just always beautiful like it doesn't rain for about six months out of the year. It just, you wake up and it's beautiful every day.
Dave: Mine would be like Pura Vita, meaning anything and everything. It can mean hello. It can mean goodbye. It can, excuse me. It can mean living life. It's people. I cut someone off and they went, oh, Puta Vida. And I was like, okay, like I said, that's a word for everything. And Lizano sauce, you have to try Lizano sauce when you're there.
Sarah: Amazing. Third question. You have hundreds of units all without your own money, without any joint ventures. What is the one attribute in your opinion that has made you as successful as you are?
Mel: For me, it was just not quitting. Quitting was just never an option. Did I have some roadblocks? Did I absolutely make mistakes? But really identifying why I want to do this and being dedicated to that, okay, if something goes wrong and I've had those moments where you're like, oh, I don't know what to do now and I'm stuck. And just deciding from the beginning that quitting would never be an option.
Dave: Coaching, we have three coaches at the moment. I have a personal coach. Mel is a personal coach and we have a business coach together.
Mel: Continuing to invest in yourself because there's two ways to do it. You can try to do it on your own and make a whole lot of mistakes, or it can invest in yourself and learn from somebody else's mistake and grow your network as well. All that and get there way faster. We are always continuing to invest in ourselves as well because we practice what we preach. We love continuing to better ourselves and better our business.
Sarah: Very cool. Can I ask? I don't need to know who, but like what type of coach are you specifically working with in the level that you're at this point?
Dave: The one guy he's a business coach. He was in the UK. He's now in Spain. I think it is. And then for our personal coaches, we each have Tony Robbins coach.
Mel: It's mindset and all that as well.
Francois: Very cool. Fourth question in our lightning round is, what do you typically do on a Sunday morning? I think I know part of the answer with all these questions, but I'll let you answer.
Mel: Sunday morning, I guess our newest routine is probably having a big breakfast with the kids. We have a big breakfast with the kids. Sometimes we go for a little ride and look at some buildings as well, but yeah, just relaxing at home. My coffee mug and just chilling around the table with the kids.
Dave: That was pretty much Sunday.
Sarah: Amazing. Mel, Dave, that was great. Where can The REITE Club nation reach out and find out more?
Mel: Yes. Thank you so much. We're all over social media. If you don't follow us yet on YouTube, we have a YouTube channel where we release a lot of videos as well on Instagram and Facebook. If you search for investors Mel and Dave, you should be able to find us pretty much anywhere or even on TikTok as well.
Sarah: I've seen some of your videos. You've got to like the dance and everything.
Mel: We have a lot of fun on TikTok. It's a whole different platform, but we're having fun with it.
Sarah: Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing the wealth of knowledge and congratulations on continuing and now getting outside of Canada.
Mel: Thank you so much for listening to everyone. And thank Francois and Sarah.
Francois: Thank you, cheers.
DJ: Thanks for listening to The REITE Club podcast, where the focus is on helping all levels of real estate investors advance to the next level and help you customize your life. Be sure to tune in next week at thereiteclub.com/podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you get a few seconds, please rate the podcast. Wherever you're listening, it helps the show get noticed by others like you and we truly appreciate it and don't forget to subscribe.
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