Laurel Simmons: Hi everyone, and welcome to another REITE Club podcast. I'm Laurel Simmons co-founder of the REITE Club, and today with me is, Paul Copcutt who is acting as my co-host today. Hi Paul.
Paul Copcutt: Hi Laurel. How are you?
Laurel Simmons: I'm doing great. So we've had a really good conversation with these two guys from Calgary Anthony Therrien-Bernard and Santosh Nathan and Anthony's from, originally from Quebec. And Santosh is originally from Singapore. So I would say a mixed cultural podcast today, wouldn't you?
Paul Copcutt: Yeah definitely. Yeah. It was interesting to hear how they both ended up meeting each other and and both in the Calgary market and good to find passionate realtors with lots of real estate investing experience. Cuz I think that's that's what a lot of our listeners should be looking for is to build that power team of people that have real estate investing experience.
Laurel Simmons: Yeah. And it is, you could listen to their stories about how they got into real estate investing and they realized that, whoa, wait a minute.
There's some, there's wealth building opportunities here and cash flow, and even them talking about figuring out. Their own why and how they work with their clients, their investor clients. Because they said, figuring out why you're doing it is really the foundation of everything. You know that, everything that happens because it really does dictate your strategy, doesn't it?
Paul Copcutt: Very much. Yeah. They really did emphasize that. Yeah, it's a good point.
Laurel Simmons: Yeah. Before we go on to the interview, I just want to invite everyone to go to our website, thereiteclub.com, sign up. There's lots of great content there. We have many podcasts, I think. How many are we up to now, Paul?
Paul Copcutt: Well over 200. So 207, 208 something like that.
Laurel Simmons: So go listen. There're really, there's lots and lots of great information from people all across the country and outside the country too. Until next time then everyone customize your life.
Laurel Simmons: Here we are again, another podcast recording with the REITE Club and our guest today are Anthony Therrien-Bernard and Santosha Nathan. and you two live in Calgary. So we're delighted to have you to talk about what's going on in the Calgary market. You are real estate investors yourselves and you are realtors.
So that's gonna be a really fun conversation. To get us started, why don't you just tell us tell us how did you go to Calgary? Why did you choose Calgary and what are you doing in terms of your own real estate investing? Who'd like to.
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Sure. Yeah. First, thanks for having us. We're really happy to be on your podcast. Both of us, Santosh and I moved to Calgary. We're not originally from here. So I grew up in Quebec. I moved to Calgary 11 years ago. I didn't have an actual plan to come here originally. We were trying to move to states. It's a bit of a long story, but ended up here pretty much by a random toss of a coin and really liked it. I stayed here and and been investing here for 10 years and working here as a route there as well.
Santhosh Nathan: Yeah. And then yes, I'll go. So for myself I grew up in Singapore, so a long ways from here. I moved to Calgary correctly in 2011 with the rest of my family. And then I did my schooling here in, got started in real estate investing in 2018 while I was still in my undergrad. And from then on I started growing my portfolio, and then I became a realtor fairly recently along with Anthony.
Laurel Simmons: So that's a question. Here's the next question. You started investing in real estate while you were still a student in university? Why and how?
Santhosh Nathan: Good questions. Why? Because before I came here, I had to do my, in Singapore, there's conscription for two years.
So if you're born in Singapore, you gotta go to the military for two years. So I was there for two years. I lived in my camp I got my, I got a salary. But I lived on camp, so I saved all that money for two years straight. All my meals were paid for, all my accommodation was free.
So all this money was just stashed. And during my undergrad, I was like, how do I make, how do I make more money? Because you're an undergrad, you're doing like, do you have a full-time course load and you just want more money, you wanna buy things or but for me it wasn't about, Things or going out to parties.
It was like I wanted financial independence. I was like, how do I make a lot of money right? And be financially free? So I started Googling and I came across at that time Matt McKeever's YouTube channel. I'm sure many listeners might be familiar. So he was putting out content and it got me really interested in like real estate investing.
Great. And so I thought it was like, Hey, how do I buy? I've got this much, I've got the down payment, but I can't qualify. Because I'm a student don't have a job, nothing's coming in. So I turned to my mom and she was very grateful. I'm very grateful to her cuz she cosigned on the mortgage and I was able to buy 'em my first single family home.
And that's how I got started. And then on after I graduated, I was able to get a get a job, get a mortgage, and then buy the next properties. Save up more. That was kinda like starting point . .
Laurel Simmons: Okay. And Anthony then how did you get started? In, started in real estate investing?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Yeah. So shortly after I moved to Calgary within about a year I started to look for a residence for myself to live in. I wanted to buy a condo at the time is what I could afford, so I started to shop around for condos. I wasn't super happy with what I was seeing. . I grew up in a detached house all my life.
In Quebec, I wanted some land. I wanted a bit more space, and at some point the light bulb came on in my head that, wait a minute, if I buy a semi-detached property that has a basement suite and I rent that out, I can actually live there for cheaper than buying a condo. So I did that.
It was essentially house hacking at the time before I knew what it was. Moved in the house, I rented the basement. And I was, I realized at that point how powerful that strategy could be. I was living for almost free at the time, and that got me excited. I was like, okay, I need to repeat this and scale this up.
That's obviously working well. . So I did a bunch of renos in the property. I legalized the basement suite and then started to purchase other properties in Calgary. So it was almost byte. I was one of those accidental house hackers. I didn't have background in real estate or anything like that.
So yeah that's what got me started. How, what sort of changes have you seen in. In the real estate market in the 10 years that you've both been investing and what is your portfolios or what do both your portfolios look like now?
Santhosh Nathan: Actually to correct. I started investing in 2018. Anthony's been in landlord for 10 years plus, so he's way more experienced than me. But in my short period of time as an investor at five years plus there's, I've definitely seen the appreciations I've started to benefit, reap the benefits of real estate.
At the same time, prices have also gone up. So I feel if I had waited to say, graduate my undergrad, and then get a job and wait until I can qualify at the market would've ran on me, right? So I'm glad I stepped, jumped into the market when I could and seize the opportunity.
What about you?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: It's the typical opportunity cost that you're talking about, right? You can wait forever, but while you're waiting for the perfect time to buy, you're not getting any return. Exactly. So for me I started buying in 2012. And for. for the listeners that might know a bit about the Calgary kind of history we had over the past 10 years.
And we had good years, 2012 to 2014, and then we had a pretty significant oil gas crash that lowered our values lowered our rents, especially in Calgary. We had rents go down by over 20% at the end of, 2014, 2015. So that's how I got started, right? That was pretty much my beginning in real estate.
And subsequently we had pretty much seven years of flat prices, including rents. So I wouldn't say that I started in the best environment in Calgary, but I'm really glad that I did get that environment because it reinforced. Investing strategies that I had at the time, all my properties performed really well through that market, which is not an optimal market and not a very usual one either.
So seeing that and seeing how other people were underperforming through that period really strengthened that philosophy in that strategy. And I think it's good to have some of those bad cycles sometimes for investors, not too far into a carrier, right? Just so that top of mind that these things can happen and do happen. Make sure you're prepared for these kind of environments.
Laurel Simmons: I think that's really good advice, especially right now, a lot of investors are going, oh, the sky is falling, the sky is falling, and prices are coming down, and it's, yeah, that happens. It's just part of a cycle and mortgage rates go up and down and it's when you've been in the, when you've been in real estate investing for a while and, or even if you've just paid attention to what's happened in the last 20, 30 years, that it
cycles. What I think part of it, exactly. Exactly.
Laurel Simmons: So I have to ask you you're working together, right? As realtors?
Santhosh Nathan: Yeah. 14.
Laurel Simmons: How did you meet and why, I guess this is a kind of a multipart question, so we'll see how far we get on this. How'd you meet? What made you decide to be realtors and what made you decide to work with real estate investors?
Who wants to go first?
Santhosh Nathan: I think Anthony you could start about how you met me. Sure. Yeah. This is kinda
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: random yeah, it's actually an interesting story. Santosh and I have not known each other for that long. I was in the process of getting my real estate license and I was looking for advice on tips, things to look for, but especially I was looking for advice on being a real estate investor.
While holding my router license because there's pros and cons to that, right? There's important considerations. So Santos reached out to me and said, Hey, I've just been through that process. I'm an investor myself, so I've waived those pros and cons already. So we had a good chat about that and I decided ultimately that was the right decision to get my license.
So we started to stay in touch and work together as I got my license. And eventually, after a few months of working together, became clear that instead of trying to compete against each other, it would make a lot more sense to join forces and work together. We have a similar way to work too, so it was a natural fit.
So it's been great grit so far. As far as working with investors, it was a very natural progression for us, cuz for both of us, we were investors first, realtor, second, right? So we were already, we already had that network. We already. Big portion of our days analyzing properties and thinking of a investing to all these things, right? So for us, it just made sense. It's our jam. It's the people we like to network with. It's the things we know, right? We do that stuff all day.
Santhosh Nathan: Yeah I agree. And I just on, on my end, like how I got started as a realtor was through my social media presence was what ultimately led me to become a realtor.
Cause when I was an investor before being a realtor my social media started growing and people started reaching out. I was posting content about real estate investing. People reached out and be like, Hey can you tag along with me and come and check out this property? Can you give me your tips?
Can you come with my realtor and see XYZ property? And I found myself doing that pretty often and I was charging a consultation fee for my time, but I felt I feel like I'd be making a lot more, and I do enjoy working with investors. While I was doing all that, I still had my job. I was working at the university as my backgrounds in research M r I research, i, I was like, I'd rather be doing real estate than science. , I figured why not just, I just took the plunge, got my license, and said goodbye to my research job.
Paul Copcutt: Maybe real estate is a science.
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Maybe that's investing differently.
Santhosh Nathan: Actually there's a arts and a science to real estate investing.
Paul Copcutt: So Anthony, you mentioned there's pros and cons to. A realtor and a real estate investor what are those, or what do you both see as being the pros and cons of having both of those professions?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Yeah, for sure. These are actually questions we get asked a lot to, from our clients.
So obviously being a realtor, we have fiduciary duty and we obviously have a duty to our client to offer them the best advice. And that's really important to us. But as investors, obviously, We wanna find the best properties as well. So some of the cons is that obviously we, our clients come first.
So if we're both looking at similar type of properties, similar areas they always have the priority, right? We can't just go and step above them and try to get those properties. So that's really important and that is an important consideration for us. , but ultimately there's a lot more properties out there than what we can buy personally, regardless.
That was a big part of our decision in doing this, is even if we miss on some good properties once in a while, ultimately it's, we can't buy them all right? Yeah. But that's one of the main consideration on the pro side. However, there's a lot of overlap between. A real estate investor and a realtor for us anyway, right?
Like we were already looking at the market and keeping an eye on what was happening. We were already analyzing a lot of properties. Now we get to do that for builder own investing and our clients.
Santhosh Nathan: I agree.
Laurel Simmons: So I have a couple questions. I'm trying to decide which is the best one to ask first, okay. Here's a question that I think a lot of people would be interested in hearing the answer to. What strategies do you recommend to someone? So let's just say someone walks into your office or wherever they're meet, they reach out to you and you are, They know you're your a realtor who specializes in, in, in real estate investing and they say to you, I'd really like to get started in real investing, but I'm not sure how to start or what to do. And I, and probably you probably get this question right, what do you do? What do you say? How do you handle that?
Santhosh Nathan: Yeah. So I can go. So we've actually worked with a few clients like that who are completely new to the whole concept of real estate investing and what we do. We like to provide value first, right?
So instead of showing the properties, Hey let's sit down for a coffee and I'm gonna break down you. What are the different strategies, right? Because some people birth strategy, Airbnb, flipping whatever the case is. We try to explain usually the bird, which is the most common one, right?
Or if you're super new and you don't wanna handle renovations, a turnkey strategy, right? Just buy something that's already done and just sit on it. And what we do is we usually meet with our clients one-on-one at a coffee shop or wherever. And we explained to them, Hey, this is the pros and cons of each strategy and what's your risk tolerance?
So we try to identify that and their budget, right? And how comfortable they are being a landlord, right? Do you wanna be a landlord? If you don't wanna be a landlord, then maybe flipping or handing it over to a property manager. makes sense to you. So we try to identify that and then we have our Facebook community as well, so we encourage people to go on there and ask questions.
Cuz sometimes they may not feel comfortable asking us all the questions or they just want a third party opinion. So that's just another platform for them to get. Other connections connect with other investors as well who have done the strategies that we have talked about. And that way they just feel more assured and ready to pull the trigger when we do start showing the
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: properties.
Yeah. Big thing for us is that we're really trying to understand what the goals are of those investors, like what they're trying to do. What's their end goal in 10 years and 20 years. Because not all strategies will achieve that the same way. And that's really important. Like Santo said, the, we're re we really trying to figure out what they're trying to do and then find them the best strategy to achieve that.
Laurel Simmons: Do you find that a lot of people are like surprised when you ask what are your long-term goals? Because I've actually spoken to people who I ask, I said why are you in real estate investing? Or why are you interested in it? What do you wanna do in five years or 10 years, or 15 years? Or, really it's underlying why, right? And all of them, I get like blank stares. It's oh, what . What do you mean? Why? Because real estate and investing is not, it's simple. It's pretty simple, right? You buy real estate Yeah. And you sell it, and then basically that's it one way or another, right?
Yeah.
But it's not always easy, right? So it is the actual implementation. The devil's in the details. It's the implementation that can be a little rough sometimes . It, it, again, it's. How do you coach people through that? Because that's, you're really talking about people's lives, right?How, yeah. You really have to make them think about what they want. How do you do that? What do you talk about?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: For sure. Yeah. Especially with new investors that's a really really good question because sometimes they often don't know, like you said, , they don't know yet what their goals are.
I think it's important for them to be asked that question, right? It forces them to think about it and spend a little more time. And a lot of investors don't know where to start either, right? So to actually run them through these options and trying to see what fits for them is important. It's often the biggest purchase of their life, but it's also often like the
Santhosh Nathan: biggest changes you made, right? Like it's very bar. And the scariest one of their lives. Cuz it's not as simple as the house that they're gonna live in. It's like an investment property. They don't know if like it's gonna cash flow. They're relying on us as a realtors to make sure hey is this a good investment?
Am I gonna spend money being put to good use? Yeah, we when we work with investors, we try to make sure, like we, we usually run the numbers for them, make. Our numbers are very conservative too, so we don't overinflate our projections or anything like that, so they're realistic and it just gives our clients an investors confidence.
Paul Copcutt: Have you ever had somebody where you've said, this really is not for you?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Everything in terms of every day multiplies multiple times a day. Like we, we will literally try to talk people out of bad deals too. Ultimately if they want to buy it, it's their own decision. , but we put the red flag up in a lot of instances, so there's much more bad deals out there than good deals, right? There's a lot more properties that are not a good fit for our clients than the ones that are a good fit.
Santhosh Nathan: So we have to do that a lot, especially in this market where a lot of properties are still, really over overpriced and they're hanging on to prices from, 90 days or four months ago and hoping to get those prices when the market has really ch shifted.
Paul Copcutt: So you're seeing that change now in Calgary, cuz that I understood Calgary was not lagging behind, but Calgary was still a fairly buoyant market up until, yeah.
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: And it really is. We haven't seen huge price correction. What we have seen though, is there was a lot of properties being sold over market and properties that were definitely overvalued and they were still selling.
We don't really see that anymore. And we do have a little bit of a price correction. It's mainly based on seasonality. But yeah, the like center. So there's still people that. trying wild numbers, right? Yeah. Those are not working anymore, especially coming into the winter.
Santhosh Nathan: Yeah. I think another thing that's propping up Calgary real estate prices too, is our inventory has gone down, so it's actually harder to find good properties that would work.
That's keeping the pressure on the prices up upwards.
Laurel Simmons: So you're actually finding sellers are holding onto their properties now? Is that what you're saying? They're not, they're, there is not that inventory on the market,
Santhosh Nathan: so yeah. They're more reluctant to sell. They hold onto it than rather take a let it sit on the market longer or possibly get a lower price rate it than say, four or five months ago when they could have got maybe 20, $30,000 more.
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: We're also in train the winter market like last year. , the winter market was nuts. That was not a normal year. , thi this year we're seeing a lot more of the normal seasonality of like inventory dropping over the winter and we expect it's gonna pick up probably over the spring. So it's crazy.
Laurel Simmons: Just before we get into our lightning round questions, cuz this is really a cool conversation, this time's gone by really fast. I do wanna ask you though about are you finding people in Calgary like for example, in investors, so let's say the buyers and I guess also the sellers. Is there a more creative approach to making offers and maybe counter offering now?
In other words maybe vendor takeback or, oh, I don't, there's all kinds of things you can do that aren't necessarily this typical, here's my offer, down payment, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is, right? Maybe even in on the commercial side, or let's say for this the sake of this discussion, commercial meeting, anything over five, six units. But do you see more creativity creeping into the offers and or counter offers?
Santhosh Nathan: At least for me, I definitely notice more buyers looking to get a vendor take. Or structured differently for example, like an agreement for sale. Just because the interest rates are really high and so they're trying to look for alternatives to see the seller can hold onto the mortgage for a couple of years and the buyer just makes the payments and then maybe refinance down the road. But what we do find on the flip side is the sellers are more reluctant to do that. Cause by the time they come to us it's alright, I'm either done with it or, I just wanna cash out. I need my cash cause. I've got a 2 million project I need the $300,000 to put there.
I don't wanna wait two years. I want the money like now. It's hard. I find that it's harder to structure these deals with properties on market unless the seller has informed us like maybe six months ahead. Hey, I'm gonna sell in six months and I'm open to these creative strategies.
So that's what I'm.
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Yeah, at least for the Calgary market, for the most part, we do see a green for sale or seller financing, but it's often on properties that are very hard to sell or sitting on a market for a long time. Often in less than desirable areas of the city. So it's not that they don't happen, but they're pretty rare when they're good properties. Those people, like Santa said, usually just want to get their money and cash out.
Paul Copcutt: And are you working with investors from outside of.
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Yep. Yeah we do have investors found so that's actually something that's changed significantly over the last year. Especially in the all downturn.
People thought Alberta was a horrible place to invest, right? They were like, oh, your economy is struggling and all these things when actually it was a great time to buy, in my opinion. But yeah. Now that things are recovering we're seeing those people trying to enter the market again, especially that a lot of them are getting priced out of their local. With the rates going up and the prices going up. So we're seeing people from Ontario BC, Quebec, like other markets try to get into the the Calgary market.
Santhosh Nathan: Yeah. More so than BC like Ontario buyers were plenty in Alberta, in Calgary at yeah. Everyone at least about five months ago, right when interest rates started going up.
Like we were pretty busy just working with Ontario buyers. Like even if we didn't wanna work with Calgary buyers, we could. Make a living off of Ontario buyers, it was that busy.
Laurel Simmons: Unlike anything else, cycles, right? I'm sure that yeah. Buyers come in from everywhere and then they go away and then Yes, it's exactly, it's all about the cycles. It's all about the cycles. All right, we're gonna move on to our lightning round now.
This week's lightning round is brought to you by Butler Mortgages. Canada's number one mortgage brokerage three years in a row. If you need a great mortgage broker to help you with investing in real estate, or to help you purchase your next home, reach out to Daniel Patton and Michael Zanini from Butler Mortgages.
You can do that by calling 9 0 5. 5 6 9 8 3 2 6 or toll free at one eight M T G t e a m. And check out their website, butler mortgages.com or by email daniel dot patin butler mortgages.com or michael dot zini butler mortgages.com and let's go to the lightning round.
Laurel Simmons: We have four questions. They're really quite easy. Just, just a snappy response. And Paul, do you wanna ask the first question?
Paul Copcutt: Sure. Okay. What is the best advice you've ever received from an investor or at a networking event?
Santhosh Nathan: I'd say for me it's kinda, you've probably heard it many times, don't wait to buy real estate. Buy real estate and wait. Because I've missed out on other opportunities because I decided I wanna wait. And then I follow it six months, a year later, and I see oh, wow. I could have made $50,000 on, or a hundred thousand dollars on it, right? So that, that's my advice. Buy, don't wait to buy real estate. Buy it, and wait.
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Yeah, for me it's you've heard this one, I'm sure it's pretty simple, but cash flows king. I've been through that down market in Alberta and I slept at night very well because I still had very nice positive cash flow.
You can go through any market and I think that advice applies even more So right now. With a bit more uncertainty in the market. So if you've got strong cash flow, there's no, no reason to not buy buy and hold property right now.
Laurel Simmons: What's your favorite resource for real estate investing? It can be a book training, a person, a mentor, an event.
Santhosh Nathan: It's a Canadian real estate channel, like previously Matt McKeever's channel. Okay. YouTube channel. Okay.
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Anthony Podcast for me, for the most part podcasts like yours are awesome. Free, great resource to hear from different investors can learn a ton.
I've been listening to a bigger podcast, podcast for a long time. I've been listening to your podcast as well. The, they're great resource. Like in, in my opinion, there's rarely a need to spend thousands of dollars on a fancy course. There's tons of free resource out there. Books are a great place as well. They're pretty cheap and get great advice.
Paul Copcutt: Okay, wonderful. And what would you consider is your greatest attribute that's made you successful?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: I think for me is to be able to stick with the strategy on the long term. Real estate investing is a lot of more veteran investors and the audience might, might know by now is not always easy. There's ups and downs. There's cycles, there, there's times where you're like why am I doing this right?
There are those days. I think knowing that the strategy works and to just stick with it over a long period of time is really important. So I think my perseverance through the process is being really important.
Santhosh Nathan: Yeah. I'd say for me my attribute that helps me out most is being very analytical.
So whenever I'm looking at deals I always run the numbers and I can do it in my head and convey the message to others or other investors in a rather simple form, right? Cause it it's not helpful to anyone if you have all the numbers in your head, but you can. Pitch your deal to an investor or buyer or seller.
So I feel like that's one of my biggest attributes is being able to kinda put complicated or rather yeah. Rather complicated detail to bite size pieces and convey it in a relatable manner. Okay. Good. Yeah.
Laurel Simmons: All right. And answer your last question. What's the hardest thing you've had to learn about in, in terms of real estate, invest?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: I would say for me it's to be treating my tenants more like customers than friends or tenants, if that makes sense. Something that's hard for me is I wanna offer. Like a nice property to my tenants and I want them to be treated well and I wanna support them if they're having struggles.
But what I've learned over the years is that you have to stay very firm with your roles. You have to stay very firm with enforcing your lease agreements. Obviously I be friendly in the process, right? But being really firm with my tenants been tough in the beginning. I will try to help them out, give them breaks on rent.
Santhosh Nathan: So that was a process for me to learn to stay firm with all these things. Yeah, I would say that was the case for me too. When I first started, like I was basically giving it to everything the tenants wanted. They were like, Our blinds are stained. Can we get new blinds?
And I would basically go put new blinds, right? But eventually I learned okay, that's not the way I should be doing it. Cause they don't call the shots and you only replace it if it's absolutely necessary. So it's very similar to Anthony. I'm too sometimes at least in the beginning I was too soft with my tenants.
But now I treat it more like a business and if it doesn't meet the requirements, it doesn't meet the requirements. . I'm more by the book, but at the same time, I keep it friendly and professional at the same time.
Laurel Simmons: So that's great advice. Great advice, guys. Yeah. Okay. Just before we go then how can people reach you?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Yeah, so we have a website, Calgary, r e i hub.com. You can also follow us on Instagram. We're both pretty active. My Instagram is investwithantony.ca. Santhosh is yyc.re.investor. YYC is Calgary. We also have a Facebook group Calgary real estate investor hub. You can look us up on Facebook. We're pretty active on there. So yeah, those are pretty much the main places you can find us.
Laurel Simmons: Okay, great. And any last words of advice before we sign off?
Santhosh Nathan: Last words of advice. Don't wait too long to get into the market. Cause the market might run on you. Okay?
Anthony Therrien-Bernard: Yeah, don't try. It's time. The market.
Santhosh Nathan: Yeah.
Laurel Simmons: That's good advice. Yeah. Like you said, just get in and start. Just start. Yeah. All right. That's great guys. Thank you so very much. Next time out, I'm out in Calgary and I'll, occasionally I get out there, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call you up and say hi. Let's go have a coffee.
Santhosh Nathan: I would be happy to meet up for sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Alright. Thanks for having us.
Laurel Simmons: Thank you.
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