Upgrading Properties to Attract Better Tenants


Laurel Simmons: Hello everyone and welcome to another REITE Club podcast. I'm Laurel Simmons, one of the co-founders of the REITE Club, and today my co-host is Victoria Cluney. Hi Victoria. 

Victoria Cluney: Hi Laurel. Good to see you. 

Laurel Simmons: Good to see you. We say Good to see you, because for those of you listening, we actually are doing this on Zoom so we see each other. That's what we mean when we say good to see you. Anyway, we have a great guest today Jamil Rahemtula, who is a realtor and an investor, a real estate investor, and he lives and works in Hamilton and he's got a three and a five year old. We just talked about that at the very end, but he's got some great stories, doesn't it?

Victoria Cluney: He really does. And I'm looking forward to hearing more about student rentals. That's the area that he focuses in and the Hamilton market. 

Laurel Simmons: If you want some insights onto what's going on and how to really maximize your, especially your student rental experience, then all that information is here in the podcast. Hi Jamil and welcome to the REITE Club podcast. It's great to see you here. We've seen you live at a REITE Club event, but this is the first time on the podcast, so welcome. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. 

Laurel Simmons: Okay, let's get right into it. What do you do and where do you live ? 

Jamil Rahemtulla: I live in a beautiful city that's growing by leaps and bounds. I live in the city of Hamilton and I am a full-time investor slash realtor. But what I majorly do is I am in the real estate space helping clients of mine acquire different asset classes be it residential, commercial. That's my main focus is right now. 

Victoria Cluney: What kind of investors are your, are you helping? And also how do you market yourself for them? Because I often hear a lot of investors struggling to connect with real estate agents that are investor friendly, as we say. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: I guess there's two ways of looking at it. How I market to the clients is, so I try to do a lot of the backend work. So I would, I'm doing the due diligence ahead of time. I'm screening properties, I'm looking at the value ads. I'm actually if it's something in my area, I'll actually go out and go see the property ahead of time to see if it's aligns well with my certain client's needs because, Every client has a different I guess they have a view of value add, right?

Some people wanna follow a quick cosmetic add-on for a renovation. So I have that person in mind. Okay, this will fit within their bucket and I'll do the research backend. I can quickly crunch numbers because of my background and I can flip them the deal with synopsis of where I could see the value add is and hope they can take some action.

Other clients I have are a little bit bigger scale, which involves further communication with the seller side of, let's say if it's a commercial building. I do a lot of that on the backend to have those conversations, build those relationships. Because as in the field that you guys are in, this business is not so much about transacting assets, it's about relationships.

The amount of deals have happened just by a phone call or knowing someone. Who was in a situation that you could help them out with has been more real estate deals, in my opinion, than actually what you've seen online and just doing an MLS search. Hope that answer that question. And in relation to marketing, I think , outside of doing crazy TikTok dances and stuff like that, I think that it's really about adding value add.

Obviously, social media is a big one. Now, before I was using a lot of my, my Rolodex and making those personable calls I feel picking up the phone and talking to people seems to have died down a lot. Making those calls or, even those text messages or video chat messages is a personality thing that I can provide.

For me to grow from that point is just adding value. Don't hold any of your secrets in, push out what you know and adding that to anyone because people can see you as a trusted resource who's done it over and over again and believes that you're not trying to do this, just something back in return. You're trying to help people because if you could provide education and support, people will see you as a trusted resource, and that will reciprocate in some way or another. 

Victoria Cluney: I love that and especially the fact that you help with the due diligence, I'm sure that would be a welcome support from investors. One of the questions that I wanna ask because this is a pain point that I often hear from investors of, really trying to find that real estate agent that can support them. 

Is there certain etiquette that you can elaborate on or certain questions an investor could ask a real estate agent in order to determine if their investor friendly, where the understanding is that we're gonna look at a lot of properties and we're gonna base our decisions on numbers and not the emotions because a lot of times, that can get pushed on with emotions and bidding wars and encouragement to go over and above what that number might be, where investors are gonna be really firm on that.

Jamil Rahemtulla: It's funny, I had a conversation with a client about this and there was some hesitation because as you were, where the market is changing so much, right? So being full, like educated and aware of what's happening in the market, be it mortgage rates or what's happening in local area, zoning changes, etc.

Victoria Cluney: Finding the right agent that was willing to do that due diligence. Going back to your statement is, I think the questions you need, we need to know is the pinpoint questions you need to know is okay. From a financial point of view, if you yourself, as an investor have a spreadsheet, for example, that you use to help you calculate.

Evaluate an asset. Look at your maybe your top four, obviously income, maybe cap rates or DSR something like that, certain acronyms that you could throw out there to your agent. If they're a little hesitant oh, I then you need to maybe scale it back and say, okay, let's see, what's the rental income.

Okay. Has, asking questions to me is obviously an art, I think in any way, but asking those strategic financial questions, income expenses, knowing those expenses ahead of time will determine how much that agent or that individual has gone into researching the property.
For example, if you're talking about a commercial property, knowing that. There is, what's the long-term maintenance contracts? Is there garbage removal contracts in place? Are they up for renewal? Things like that you need to have the agent to be asking ahead of time because you could be at a closing of a property and they're up for renewal and you don't, and you gonna be hit with maybe a 10% increase, which cuts into your bottom line.

You need to be able to ask those real deep questions. So at a very Kohl's note version is if you do have a spreadsheet, Look at the main buckets and see if they can help you answer those line items. And alternatively, see if the agent has a spreadsheet and say, Hey, could you share me a spreadsheet?

Let's go run through a scenario. Let's pull up a listing that you, I like and let's go run through it. What's the asking price? What do you think the rents will be? Do you know the market rents? Do you know what the expenses are? Can you gimme a range? And then that'll give you or an op approximate idea of how that will work.

As you said, a realtor is focused on investments, it's more of a business than say, okay, how do you evaluate a business versus an emotional decision when it's a first time homeowner? When you're moving into your home, it's an emotional decision. How does it make you feel? 
You have to understand they could crunch those numbers in a way that can challenge the person, because I love to be challenged as a realtor or as an investor because it allows you to open up a different dimension and say, okay, I didn't even think about skinning the gap this way. 

I didn't think about it looking it that way. And that to me is how you make money in real estate is adding lift or adding value or seeing an opportunity that no one else has seen. I think one of the things though that you've skirted around and it's really important, is that you as a realtor are also an investor in real estate. 

To me, I think that if you're going to be investing in real estate, then the people in your team should also have real life experience in investing in real estate because there's only so much you can learn through theory, right? You have to literally learn it in the streets. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: Yes, I skipped over that one. But yeah, of course, I would've asked them like, how many doors do you have? What kind of asset class do you have currently? What have you owned in the past? What are you currently looking at?

Because if an investor's just focused purely on condos or assignment deals, then. Throwing 'em into a multi-unit or a duplex conversion is going to possibly be new for them. And a learning curve that's, you both are gonna be going through a learning curve and it's that something you're comfortable with? So that going back to your point, absolutely. Yeah, knowing what their background is, what's been their track record isn't important for sure. 

Laurel Simmons: You are an investor. So tell us what's your portfolio look like?

Jamil Rahemtulla: Currently I have student rentals. I have and I've shifted a lot. I used to do a lot of flips and long-term holds. And now I'm mostly focused on student rentals and multi-family. I have a few multifamilies and a commercial property. So I have my finger in a few pots. Prefer to focus on multi-family currently from my own portfolio. Because with the way the market's going, the multi-unit is where there's mult a lot of opportunity for a lift or a value add.

If you have the right strategy and team behind you, you can see the opportunities versus a single family home. In my mind the amount of money and effort it takes to take a single family home and convert it into a duplex, for example it is essentially the same amount of effort that it takes to take a four unit or five unit and turn that into a six or see there's a value add or a lift. So I just see that the value for of scaling and that's my focus and my priority.

Laurel Simmons: You also mentioned student rentals, and I know that, with the pandemic student rental just got disappeared. I think it's safe to say for the most part. How did you handle that real sort of market tumult, let's put it that way.

Jamil Rahemtulla: You know what? That's a great question. Just having a really clear understanding of your financial requirements and having a plan in place for not so much of as a covid situation, the rainy day fund. The opportunity came to us where, we had enough of a reserve that we could withstand having a vacancy of the property.

It gave us as landlords and for the ones who were savvy enough to say We've had fully occupied properties for this long, here's an opportunity to come in and actually renovate and clean it up because we know that in year, two years down the line, the students are gonna ask and they're gonna be back.

The biggest thing that we're finding, and this is one of the things we're seeing that's changing in the market, is students have developed and they want more and as landlords we're pretty much, we're required to answer to the masses where the demand is. So we've, we upgraded our units, we did things that wouldn't be normally seen in student rentals.

In turn we're able to, at the time, was right to off increase our rents. So we go from $400 a room to now $700 a room. And we still have people lining up to see the place because it's the days of Dungy, bad carpeted, funky colored walls and all that. Rooming houses are, those are done.
People want higher end if they're gonna be paying for higher education, they want quality living. So that's how I manage that and it's come back and it's turned out to be great by focusing on investing in the property. 

Victoria Cluney: That was gonna be my question. When you said that you did things that people don't normally see in these student rentals, so is it just right by upgrading the interior or is there any other like tips and tricks, that you can share with our audience? 

Jamil Rahemtulla: Absolutely. So the first thing I'd like to offer, obviously he internet is a strategic strategy. And if you have two levels and if the service, cause sometimes if you're a basement, the service not be great.

Have them go through it when you're putting the internet. Go through in every room, check your cell phone bars, or you the wifi bars in every room because kids are downloading and they're gamers. So if you have to, I've done it where I've had two different lines, two different service lines for the upstairs and downstairs.

Because I've had calls during exams Hey, my service is down. And I don't wanna have that on my conscious that they couldn't get in or, can't download that pdf, or whatever it may be. And second thing is I offer obviously dishwashers and hiring appliances and, freezers are key freezers for students are essential because they like to, parents come sometimes they bring 'em lots of food.

Then the third thing I say is offer a maid. I love to offer cleaning because when things are crazy and school's happening and you're focusing on your textbooks and all that, you don't really have time to clean. 

Offering that comfort gives the student support knowing that they don't have that obligation, oh, I gotta do this, gotta clean up my living room, or this and that. Also gives parents peace of mind that, Hey, I'm not, my kids are not gonna be living. They at least have, they're living in a safe, in a comfortable and help healthy, safe space. 

Laurel Simmons: There's also another side to that too, because actually I was looking at student rental just before the pandemic hit. Thank goodness I didn't jump at that point. We went in a slightly different direction. However, one of the greatest tips I received at that point was to get how a cleaning staffing, because they were another set of eyes that could report to you about the condition of the property. 

It's not like you're, you don't wanna spy on people. But if you see something going on that's, either things need repair or yeah. I don't know, something, some illegal activity that you really don't wanna be involved in, whatever it is. You have some, you have another set of eyes. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: It's funny you mentioned that I just had an inquiry, I had some a certain area, one of my buildings, the students were not as clean, so I'm gonna try to propose something different.

I'm gonna say, Hey, let's sit down and come up with a cleaning schedule, let's work together. Because my property manager informed me, sorry, my cleaner informed me that, hey this part of the building they're not as clean, they're not cleaning up here and there, and they're not staying on top of it.

It gives me that opportunity, as you said, to actually interject before it gets even worse to say, Hey, look let's what can we, what can I do to help you? Versus being like, you mandatory need to do this on Mondays, etc I have to try to figure out a solution cause they're balancing their lives too, right?

Victoria Cluney: I'm gonna shift a little bit of the focus on Hamilton. So is this the market, this is the only market that you're investing in, or do you invest outside of it? 

Jamil Rahemtulla: I invest in Hamilton, Branford Cambridge, so any of the KWC area and all the way out to the Niagara. So I'm essentially west of ending west of Hamilton. So wherever I see this opportunity on this side within an hour and a half from where I am, I can at least keep my finger on the pulse and have my network that far. 

Anything farther, I usually just. I refer to other investors or realtors that can help me. I don't tend to go out that comfort zone where even though it's a great deal I tend not to do that for at least for clients. 

Victoria Cluney: Okay. And have you seen a big shift in the Hamilton market? I keep hearing a lot about it, especially like it was ranked number one with the, I think it was the rental rates.

Jamil Rahemtulla: The rents are wild. Yeah, the rents are wild. I think it was like, depends on where you are. If you're on the mountain, one bedrooms are, I'm saying some parts of the mountain. I'm seeing over 2000 bucks, 2100. Sometimes it's 22 bedrooms, 22, 23. It all depends on the finishes, but yeah the market is, it is adjusting.

Absolutely. So when, during the peak of the Covid times versus now it's come down 10%, 15%. There are bidding wars, which is and I know it's funny to say, but in the student rental space, there's tons of bidding wars happening in the McMaster area or even near up on the mountain from Mohawk because the rents have gone up.

Going back to the question as an investor, you look at investments that can give you a cash flow and obviously appreciate, but right now the cash flow properties with the interest rates are pseudo rentals. So I see in a broad spectrum of asset classes, I see single family homes, century homes, like two and a half story homes in the lower city of Hamilton.

They're going for, 500 and the 600 thousands. Investors are coming in and they're converting them into two units, three units potentially. Adding a fourth unit is a garden suite. So the barrier to entry is not as bad. Because the rental market can support it. Now if you're going to mountain, you do a bungalow.

COVID times we were paying 800,000, right? Hoping for a million ARV versus now you could probably pick it up. Six, maybe 600. So it's adjusting. That's, I guess that's in a nutshell. It's adjusting the rental market though is very strong. I can't express that enough that the short-term, mid-term and long-term market in Hamilton is mind boggling.

Victoria Cluney: And what about purpose-built type buildings? Do you see, does Hamilton have a lot of that? I haven't been looking at the Hamilton market too much. So what about investors that wanna get into the multi-family space? Do you find Hamilton a good market for that? 

Laurel Simmons: Yes. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: There is a lot of older multi-family for sure. Purpose-built buildings. If they go on the market, they get snatched up very quickly. Now, if you're an investor looking five units to 10 units, you could potentially get them. But their breeds are very popular and they pick them up within, a day or two they're taken off the market.

Now, if you're going, 10 units and up, then they tend to, there are opportunities especially with people who've borrowed on private money or hard money, they are opportunities. And yeah, I don't, we do see them. Maybe I would see like one every month, one every two months or something like that.
We see a good deal. And but yeah, there are quite a few multifamilies and the ones that are up for sale are usually mix use, so commercial in the bottom and then residential up top. Those ones are fairly easily to pick up in the Hamilton area. 

Laurel Simmons: I'm gonna take you back cause I'm really curious. What was your first purchase as a real estate investor and what was it like and do you still have it?

Jamil Rahemtulla: Great question. So my first purchase was a student rental, actually . And it was a student rental. And back in 2008. And I paid a premium for it. And I still have it. Yes, I still do have it. Why I bought it was because I had been reading Don Campbell's books as a young, as young lad. And I thought to myself, I'm young, I don't have a lot of capital, but I know that if I can get something cash flowing, I can go to the bank and show the leases, etc and get that mortgage as a supplementary.

That was my first in, that was my first property. And that's springboarded me to two more student rentals after that and then going into buying flips and then and into present day. But yeah, student rentals where I started, I got my feet wet. And it's funny because, we talk mostly rentals.
It's what a lot of investors are coming back to now because it's cash. People are paying, upwards. I saw a place in McMaster the other day. It's maybe 120 square feet, not a big room, 10 by 12, 950 bucks a room. So this is a room. 

Imagine today. And today you're paying 950. What people are gonna have to pay in five years from now? And for those investors and listeners thinking about their children and how they get, thinking about those assets that they need to acquire, not, doesn't have to be student rental, but thinking about an asset that can give them that income to support their children's education.

Victoria Cluney: It's interesting. I have a property that I purchased, it was right outside of a college. It's in Nova Scotia, but we are also converting this to student rentals and , tell me about I know we talked a little bit about what you were doing with the interior in order to increase, but is there anything else that you can elaborate on?

Certain things I've heard is to have it furnished so that you don't have. The wear and tear from students moving in and out or, what do you do in the summertime? Do you ever think about converting to Airbnbs or if, I don't know if that area allows it. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: Great question. So now they're introduced in specifically Hamilton and other jurisdictions, but they're introduced the licensing, pilot licensing program. So they're cracking down on a lot of unable landlords who have, rooming houses that don't fall, building code or park code, etc. 

What I do for that is exterior wise, obviously add, ring camera, security systems barbecues sometimes, you offer little things that they can attract them during the, if they wanna stay for the summer. But overall, yeah, I've had the pleasure of having the opportunity of. I'll put a tv, I'll give 'em a nice, I'll put TVs in the living room. 

I'll give 'em nice couches. It's funny I'll put like art sometimes on the walls and, you'll attract certain tenant profiles if they like it. Good things I like do is, give really good shower systems. 

It sounds funny, but like really good shower systems don't chip out on that. Yeah, like nowadays, if I ever do a new one, I'll do one of those touch mirrors that add the actual light because a lot of people are taking photos in the mirror, in the bathrooms or, really good lighting. I know it sounds awkward, but lighting is so critical. I do that. If I have to, I'll give them, I'll throw in rugs. Because a lot of kids will think about, okay, I'll just get a bed set side table, etc, but I won't, I'll just throw 'em, give 'em a rug that compliments the floors.

To answer your question about furnishing we did that for a little bit where we would offer rentals like a dollar a day per piece of furniture. So if I'm giving him a desk I'm giving him a bed frame I'm giving him maybe a closet kind of thing. I rented out a dollar a day and that was very attractive to To international students especially because they're coming with nothing.

They got a few suitcases and they're looking for whatever. It just, we moved away from that because, we didn't, there was some rules around offering furnished places and then now you become it. We was something that, there was, we would discuss over, back and forth and then we'd have to write separate agreements and it got, it all got cumbersome.

Then if there's damages, you have to think about, okay. Desk is damaged, as long as you've recuperated your cost, where are you gonna store it? So it became a bit of a rolling situation, but it's definitely something that was attractive. I offer connections to what I would do is I'd say, here's my furniture company.

Go reach out to them. They'll offer free delivery. Here's the mattress company, they'll help out there. What else do we do? We also offered, if at the time I was painting, we can, will allow, all my painter will come in and paint an accent wall for you. Pick the color. So this all, because I'm obviously charging a premium rent.

If this is a perfect timing, if they sign at this time and they want it to go over the summer, then I do that. And that's over and beyond that, most people won't do that. And they like the comfort of, oh, I know my walls and me pink, or whatever it is. Yeah, I think I also offered another thing, another tip I would say is if you're doing anything offer if you can, USB outlets.

Is part of your electrical outlets. Those are really nice students really love that because they have so many devices and do that. But we never had to like, pivot to the Airbnb model. We've had people ask, but it's always been rented because I try to structure it in a way that it's so attractive that they wanna sign a 12 month lease at the end of the previous tenant profile. So it's worked out so far for us. 

Victoria Cluney: I like how you are being, thoughtful about the generation and all the little nuances that might attract 'em. It is a little Airbnb esque in the way that you are being client based. So yeah. That's great. Great tips. 

Laurel Simmons: I think it's really good cause you are the more you increase the value of a house or the, sorry, I shouldn't say the perceived value, cause that's really what we're talking about, right? And it's it not just with students, it's with anything. If you wanna attract really great tenants for your property, then. Make the property really great. It's pretty obvious, but maybe obvious is not so obvious sometimes. Make it attractive. Yeah. If you'd like to live there.

Jamil Rahemtulla: That's right. Exactly. Go ahead and say that. That's exactly what I was thinking. 

Laurel Simmons: If you'd like to live there then well, what would you like? We're not talking about over the top I don't know. Two inch marble yeah. Kitchen not cabinets countertops. But really they make it nice and the nicer it is. I think the better quality of tenants you get. That's good. 

Victoria Cluney: My dad always said, never try to turn a frog into a prince. So I think about that with my properties as well. You gotta know what the property is and then keep it that in that demographic. 

Laurel Simmons: That's a really good tip. Okay with that, we're going to go to the lightning round now. So we're going to ask you questions. Just give us the answer right off the top of your head. And Victoria, you can start. 

Victoria Cluney: Is the market going up this summer?

Jamil Rahemtulla: I don't think so.

Laurel Simmons: Okay, so you have to expand on that a little bit more. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: Sorry. I thought it was like rapid. 

Victoria Cluney: It really was, but now I'm curious. Why don't you think so ? I know we actually, we do want, we're just curious. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: I'm seeing what's happening in the market and we're finding that the sellers are I'm seeing way more reductions in prices than I'm seeing sales, at least in the space that I'm looking. And property just sitting in the market longer. So what's happening is I think that delta of the mentality of how they saw prices are during the covid times to present day and marrying with what's happening with the interest rate hikes.

I think there's still a bit of more of an adjustment that has to happen. I'm not gloom doom and gloom or anything like that. Still, the asset class is great for real estate no matter which way you go, but I still see there's adjustments that have to happen where. 
It just, it doesn't it's not fathomable anymore for someone to purchase a property a certain amount, and the rents cannot justify it. I still think there's gonna be an adjustment by this summer, but I think we're gonna in, Q1 of next year we're gonna start seeing some changes for sure. 

Laurel Simmons: I think it sounds like really what we're saying is that now is the time to act. The best time to get into real estate is right now. You can always think about the future and well forget about the past cuz that's gone. Yeah. But the best time to act is now. So do your due diligence, talk to the right people, get out there and do some research. All right. Question number two. What's the best advice you've ever received as an investor?

Jamil Rahemtulla: Oh, that's a good one. Best advice. I think the best advice I got as an investor was stop and so it was where, let the other party speak, let the other party kind of divulge and not say in the worst words, but, give away their position, but more so let them speak about.
Themselves or the building and let them feel who you are and that will allow you to establish a position, a better position. So that was kinda the best one that I got because it helps because it builds a connection. So I think that's the best piece of advice that I got.

Victoria Cluney: That is great advice. It's great advice. Even just when you're meeting other people, you don't need to know more about yourself. It's the other people that you wanna learn about, right? And so when you're listening, you get that data. So I love that. My last question is gonna be, what is your favorite real estate investing resource? It can be a networking group, a book, a podcast, whatever you want.

Jamil Rahemtulla: Great question. Yeah, my favorite resource I would say. There's so many it sounds nerdy, but I like Korea. The site, it's the, it provides national statistics, provides everything that's happening on national scale, and you can drill down into data that goes down into provincial and city level.

There's so many. There's a book Who Not How. That's another great book. Another great book I would say right now I'm reading is never Split the Difference. That's for anyone who's interested in negotiations or going back to that point of learning about. Personality types and working with people. I think that's a great tool and resource as an audiobook. You can even listen to while you're on the road. That's a really good resource in my opinion.

Victoria Cluney: I use it on my kid. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: Don't you know what kids are the best negotiators in my opinion? How often are they like, I want TV or I know I want this chocolate bar, and you say No, and they say no, and you're like, okay, fine. Here you go.

Victoria Cluney: They're relentless. 

Laurel Simmons: Okay, last question. What do you do for fun? 

Jamil Rahemtulla: What I do for fun, I love playing basketball. That's my passion. I love playing ball. And now it's taking the kids out skating. And those are the two most passionate things right now is playing basketball and skating with the kids.

Laurel Simmons: How old are your kids?

Jamil Rahemtulla: They're five and three. 

Laurel Simmons: They're little. So you're getting them out there and enjoying the Canadian winter. Good for you. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: I'm taking all the showings next. That's what my plan is. 

Laurel Simmons: Get 'em young, educate them young. And then you'll have no trouble later on. That's great thank you very much, Jamil. And before we go, where can people reach you? What's the best way to reach you? 

Jamil Rahemtulla: Absolutely. They can reach on Instagram at Jamil Rahemtula and or on my website at www.jamilrahemtula.com. On Facebook the same way. So pretty much just look up my name and you'll be able to find me anywhere on there. I'm not on TikTok yet, but if I convince maybe we can do a REITE club mass dance across everybody. And you'll convince me to do one or something. 

Victoria Cluney: I'm dabbling. It's the Wild West on TikTok. 

Laurel Simmons: Thank you so very much. 

Jamil Rahemtulla: Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you all.

Laurel Simmons: Well, Victoria, he is really great, isn't he? He's so passionate. 

Victoria Cluney: He is knowledgeable, passionate. I guess that's what you want in a real estate. Agent. 

Laurel Simmons: You really do. Can you imagine the worst thing would be, okay, let's go look at this or, yeah, I think there's a couple things over there you might be interested in. 

Victoria Cluney: For sure. And I think that I think a lot of real estate investors, sometimes do get mixed up with agents that don't understand investing. So I think it's so important that we can find people like Jamil who can, guide investors through the process and really help them out. 

Laurel Simmons: Yes, because he does have that experience himself and I cannot stress how important it is that it doesn't matter who's on your power team, whether it's your real estate agent or your broker, or your accountant, or your lawyer, whatever it is, they need experience in real estate investing.

Victoria Cluney: Agreed. I agree. 

Laurel Simmons: All right, everyone. As always, if you have enjoyed this podcast, please rate it on whatever platform you're listening on that helps us to reach other people. And don't forget to go to thereiteclub.com. We have lots of podcasts there, lots of content videos, all kinds of things for you to watch and listen to. And until then, customize your life. We'll see you next time.