Real Estate Investing is a High Risk & High Reward Game!


Sarah Larbi: REITE Club Nation. Welcome back to this week's episode of The REITE Club podcast. I'm here with Francois. We've got some great guests today. Let's bring in Victoria and Angie Pettyjohn from their mortgage brokers that have a lot of expertise working with investors.
In addition to that a lot of expertise in borrowing and lending private funds. So we talk about that. I hope you guys enjoy the podcast. Don't forget to rate and review on Apple's podcast or wherever else you listen to your podcast. So let's bring them in and enjoy today's show. Angie and Victoria, welcome. How are you?

Angie Petyjohn: Fantastic. How are you doing?

Sarah Larbi: I'm excellent. I'm, we're excited to have a mom and daughter today on our show and thank you for being on. So we have lots of questions for you today and in lots of directions that we can take this. But before we get started, maybe just a brief background on what each of you are currently doing in real estate. That would be perfect to start there.

Angie Petyjohn: Fantastic. Thanks Sarah. Thanks, Francois. REITE Club Nation. I'm Angie Pettyjohn. I am with the Windrows team. I'm a mortgage broker and what I do and love is I'm part, I do passive lending. I've been doing it for a number of years, but because of the RETE Club and us, our involvement the last couple of years, I'm starting to get that bug. I don't know, I'm not gonna say never, but I'm thinking about it.

Victoria Pettyjohn: I'm a mortgage agent and I'm Angie's underwriter, and so I haven't personally invested in real estate, but I've been getting a bug. My partner, he does. And so I've been following along with his journey in helping him do some of the stuff, like behind the scenes. So I definitely want to invest in the future. I just haven't pulled the plug yet.

Angie Petyjohn: We're self-employed. We understand the struggles as well. We're not just hearing the pain. We feel the pain as well.

Sarah Larbi: Absolutely. So you're predominantly helping real estate investors with their financing and ensuring that they can keep scaling. So you're quite involved in the industry and working for Claire Drage from the Windrose Group. One of the biggest mortgage brokerages. In my opinion, at least, in Ontario how many agents are there?

Angie Petyjohn: It is funny enough, Claire had scaled her business to about 70 or 80 part of the investor team. We had a group of about six or so recently, Claire made a massive announcement that she's zeroing in on her own business. She's at that point in her life where she wants to spend time with her family, friends. This is why we do it, right? We wanna spend time with our family with her grandbabies.

Victoria and I have been asked to stay on, which has been a massive blessing for us. So there's, right now there's a commercial specialist, a specialist Emil, and ourselves on the investor side. And then we have someone whom you haven't met Peter. He does the sourcing of private funds and that sort of thing.

Sarah Larbi: All right, so let's talk about private money and essentially how you support investors by either borrowing that or lending it out. Either one of you can answer.

Angie Petyjohn: Sure. Victoria, why don't you talk about how we underwrite a deal in order for them to qualify for the private money to begin with.

Victoria Pettyjohn: Sure. Originally, so not originally, but at the beginning we basically have like our initial call with the investors and we wanna see what they've done, and we wanna mitigate the risk too for our private lenders. And so we're seeing what they've done in any history, all their documents, like every single document.

We basically wanna make sure that they are who they say they are. And so when we. Go through all their stuff. We put together their package and we then just match up a private lender with our borrowers.

Angie Petyjohn: We start off by the sniff test as we call it. We love to say we trust, but we wanna verify everything. So even though the documentation is pretty heavy, we don't necessarily send all of that to our lender. Just because it's private lending, it doesn't mean that you're free to have terrible credit scores and that sort of thing.

Francois Lanthier: I find it's actually sometimes the opposite. It's even more critical. But then timelines are different. because sometimes private lenders, I don't know with you, but is it shorter? Because sometimes private money, that's the big advantage. It's quicker.

Angie Petyjohn: We always say start as soon as you have, don't look at us when you finally have found a property. Come to us before that. Let us underwrite the borrower first so that we can, we are the matchmakers. So if you wait till the last minute and we don't know who you are, you're borrowing the background of your credit, don't come to us at the last minute and expect us to find a private lender because we're matchmakers.
We have lenders who don't wanna go to 80% loan value and you need a lender that goes to 80%. Help us alleviate those hurdles and ghost directly to a lender because we know your file already

Francois Lanthier: You're a private lender yourself, Angie, from what I understand? So what do you look for? Do you do the same underwriting or if you'd walk us through that?

Angie Petyjohn: Absolutely. So before starting on Claire's team, I didn't really understand the significance like I did. I knew that first and second mortgages there was more risk in a second than a first. , but this world of investing where you understand the borrower has experience, been there, done that has a massive portfolio that just wasn't in my realm of thought before.

I was just looking for a first mortgage or a second mortgage. And the location, maybe geographical, it's GTA loan value is about 65% to 70%. Now I know that I can go to 80% on the first. I primarily focus on first, and I primarily focus on real estate investors. Like I would lend all day long to Sarah Larbi and to yourself, Francois you've been there, you've done that.

I know your background. But, we and I stay away from second mortgages now, those consolidation loans, those people who are desperate to hold onto their homes, those over the years and Victoria can attest to that. Those have been the ones that we've had most trouble with. So I've adjusted how I lend based on my learnings throughout the years and I've focus in on being a real estate investor and a first mortgage.

Sarah Larbi: Awesome. And do you mostly focus on non-registered or registered funds or is it a mix of both? Maybe you can expand a little bit on that part.

Angie Petyjohn: For me personally or business?

Sarah Larbi: Sure. You personally, and then the business, how about that.

Angie Petyjohn: For me personally, Victoria, you can answer the business part. We've done both. We've used our registered funds. They do need to be ready at Community Trust or Olympia Trust. It's a longer process. Takes about 10 days for those funds to be transferred over.
Then for the lawyer to do their due diligence, they definitely need an appraisal or NPSs Victoria? NPC? Not the appraisal, but the document that states the value of the property.

Sarah Larbi: The MPAC.

Angie Petyjohn: MPAC oh my goodness. See what happens when you have an underwriter. I'm not reviewing all those documents anymore. They definitely need that. But yeah, I've done both sides. I've done cash and I've done registered funds. It's just, the process is a little different.

Francois Lanthier: As Sarah and myself and people in The REITE club, we can refer to you private lenders cause I get asked quite often. I have money, I don't know what to do and I'm not a mortgage broker. So I could send people your way and then you would match make for them.

Victoria Pettyjohn: Of course. So when we get new private lenders too, we do the sniff test as well. We wanna make sure that they are who they say they are, that their funds are legitimate. And so we do have a form through a brokerage that they would fill out. They have a conversation with Angie. We get their ID and we get 90 day history of funds to make sure that it's all there. And then basically as soon as they're ready, we're ready and we can start sending them like investor proposals to get them.

Angie Petyjohn: We always say it's really important and key to work with mortgage brokers who do private lending on a daily basis.
I've seen some deals that have come my way through friends because I may not have a deal ready to go, and they've sent me an email from a broker that basically has a loan to value and you know how much they. Never get involved in those types of deals. Always get a full package. Like our packages are impeccable, if we should say so ourselves. With Claire's backing, how can they not be? So always work with a broker who does this on an ongoing basis. I can't tell you how bad it can go if you don't.

Sarah Larbi: Absolutely. You always wanna dot your i's, cross your t's as much as possible and do your due diligence. I think you talked to Angie a little bit about how you loan out. But just what about the business as a whole? Is there a cap to a certain amount of loan to value? Is there any other criteria around that for second, third mortgages? Like how does that all work? .

Victoria Pettyjohn: With the business, so when we are matching up our private lenders and stuff, it's all dependent on their criteria. So we do have some lenders who like going to a hundred percent loan to value and then some who are more conservative between 50% to 65%. So it really just depends on the situation and also what the investor has. So in their portfolio, do they have a lot of assets? Do they have a full-time job? What does their package look like as well? And then it basically, it depends.

Angie Petyjohn: Then for our investors that have massive portfolios, that's when we can get even more creative, with the other people's money. The OPM prom notes we have a scale of lending, from first mortgages. Then we add on down payment, closing costs, renovation costs. It really depends on the experience of the investor and how far we can lend to them. Victoria's job is always to figure out that scale. Sometimes investors aren't happy with it, but we have to, so we mitigate our own risk as our business based on how we've underwritten the files as well.

Sarah Larbi: All right. So it's, it sounds like for the right investor, the right deal with the right lender, pieced together definitely money would be quite available. What are typical rates for first or second mortgages right now that you're seeing, maybe from the load at the high, as an example for first and second.

Angie Petyjohn: On first mortgages, we're seeing a rate, depending on loan to value. It all depends, geographical area, loan of value and all this. But typically there, it's in the 10% range. So how that's broken up could be 6.99 and 2.99. It could be like, eight and two could be nine one. So that's generally a first mortgage.

Then if it's over like those jumbo mortgages, over a million dollars, we might. See a one percentage higher, so maybe 11% in how that's split up between the monthly payment and the lender fee is a little different. And then second mortgages again, we tend to shy away from second mortgages cause those are the homeowners that tend to be in trouble, but we do see those rates between 10% and 14%, maybe even 15%. And again, the split depends on a lot of things. The loan of value and geographical area and that sort of thing.

Sarah Larbi: Absolutely. So money is accessible, but it's a little bit more expensive and hopefully there's an exit. I'm guessing when you're doing your underwriting, you're looking for an exit and to ensure that person is going to have a plan, whether it's, three months, six months, one year etc., to be out of that money, either by selling or refinancing with your firm. Again with a lender, B lender, credit union, all that good stuff.
What are you seeing? In today's market right now, I mean there's, crazy bidding wars on, 10 offers on one property prices just outta the, ballpark. What are you seeing? Just to switch it up a little bit. Just even from an appraiser standpoint. And it could be from a private, like if somebody's private lending or not what are, like, what are some things that are changing, from appraisals that we're seeing versus maybe two years ago.

Angie Petyjohn: We're seeing timelines change and we're seeing appraisers declining appraisals. It's a phenomenon I've never seen in my whole career. So there's nothing. There's no quick close right now. That's really what we're seeing. So have all your ducks in a row. We mentioned earlier it is really key during this timeframe cause you're gonna want to jump on that property as soon as you see it.

If you have to waive conditions for your conditions with most investors, do you know then we've got some time for that appraisal. We're seeing that there's emotional buyers. This last week has been a little funny cause things have seemed to slow down a bit. But we did see emotional buyers. So the investors were really contending with home buyers, which they won't make their numbers work, but then the home buyers are buying things a hundred thousand over. Anything you wanna ask add Victoria on your side.

Victoria Pettyjohn: I'm seeing, so the emotional buying as well. So I'm seeing that the appraisers, sometimes the appraisals are coming in a little lower than what I've seen people purchasing. Some appraisers are better at gauging the market as well. There's some like investor focused appraisers and so they can see things that have sold and stuff like that.

Some, I've seen comparables. Before like September, 2020, October, 2020, when the market wasn't as crazy. So we are having to go back and ask the appraiser, okay, can you re-look at some of the comparables and stuff? As the market isn't how it was before. It is a little crazier. So we are seeing values coming in a little less than before.

Angie Petyjohn: We've adjusted to our underwriting instead of, so when we're looking at BRRRRs we know that some people have to perhaps leave a little bit of their money in it. So we're adjusting our underwriting to incorporate that.
We're very conservative. We run the numbers at 70%, the average after repair value, and we make sure ahead of time, obviously. That the investor can qualify for that 70% ARV. And then if they get the 80 then that's a bonus.

Francois Lanthier: I'm curious to ask you Angie, so you, again, going back to their private lending, how did you grow your fund? Like, how did that happen? As a private lender.

Angie Petyjohn: We had our, we had RSP funds already just sitting there at, a financial institution and I was introduced to this about eight years ago and how to use your RRSPs as funds to lend. So that's how I started with that. But then with the cash side, It's equity in our own home. And because of that, we can, it's a write off. It's a mortgage, but we can write off, write it off cause it's home equity line of credit. And that's essentially what we've been doing for several years now.

Sarah Larbi: That's awesome. And I don't think that a lot of people think of being able to utilize their funds to loan out. Sometimes that's like an afterthought and and especially when it comes to registered funds, cuz there's tons of people that are, sitting on, 4%, 3% annual income from, mutual fund returns. Why do you think that the banks don't encourage people to do that and they encourage more, along the lines of investing in mutual funds of their own.

Angie Petyjohn: I think it just comes down to how they mitigate their risk, right? Like the government sees real estate investing as one of the most extreme high risk activities. We have hundreds and hundreds of investors who can prove them wrong, but they just, it's just the box that they're in. They wanna mitigate their risk, so they don't, they just don't advertise that you can self-direct your own registered funds.

Sarah Larbi: It takes away money, I think from them. Cause you'd have to move it over to Community Trust and Olympia trust.

Angie Petyjohn: Most financial advisors, like you go to somebody I dunno, freedom 55, whoever it is that you have your money with, They're not going to let you know this, because that is going to be a chunk of change that you're taking away from their own portfolio.
Self-directing means you're taking control of your registered funds, like. We've got a minimum of 50K. We've got deals up in S eight Marie, with some incredible experienced real estate investors that you can use 50 K and help lend to them. It's really an incredible means to grow your wealth as well.

Francois Lanthier: As a follow up question, so Victoria, what brought you into this world? I know there's mom, obviously , but what's your interest? How do you enjoy this ?

Victoria Pettyjohn: I guess it goes back to like when I was in high school. When I was in high school, I used to do my mom's admin and some of her social media, and I've just been around the mortgage brokering business my whole life.

My dad also had his license at one point. He no longer does. So I've been around it my whole life. And then once I graduated university, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And so I was like you know what I'll try it out. We gave ourselves two years and it's been going well ever since.
I'd got like the real estate bug. When we started at, on Claire's team, we got introduced to The REITE Club, started hearing all the stories, and then my partner, he invests, so I started seeing it through him and then, it's just kind been a rollercoaster, like all the way from like the beginning, all the way to now.

Sarah Larbi: Very cool. And how is it working, together just day to day in, day out, are things closer than you were before? How's that relationship?

Victoria Pettyjohn: We've always been close. She's one of my best friends. I've always thought that, and so we've always been close and it was an adjustment at first being from like a mother-daughter relationship to a working relationship. But I think we've stayed as close as we were. And I think that helps us too, with our communication and knowing that we can trust one another. We used to be in the same office. We're not anymore. I moved out.

Angie Petyjohn: That was the biggest adjustment for me was when she left, because Vic, I've always leaned on Victoria for the technology aspect, and then as COVID happened and I had to learn all of this just like the rest of the world, and it didn't break me. In fact, we had probably our best year ever.

Sarah Larbi: That is awesome. Congrats. I'm just curious because obviously, you're seeing deals coming in and you're seeing deals being loaned on and borrowed and that kind of stuff. What are our risks and downsides?
Because sometimes we talk so much about, like, all the great things that happen for real estate investing and how, we have access to money or, there's money that you can loan out, but nothing is risk free. And there's always gonna be some downside. So if one of you can talk about that and what to be cautious about.

Angie Petyjohn: Sure. I can start with that. The biggest risk is nothing is guaranteed. You can lose all your money. And it's the scariest thing and that's what people don't wanna hear, but it's important that you do understand that, that nothing is guaranteed.
There are gonna be bumps along the way. There are gonna be, there's timelines that can be extended. There can be an illness or something that will delay you getting your money back. That's the biggest risk. and it's important, like we said earlier, that you understand those risks so that you can mitigate them.

Being part of a team, like the Pettyjohn team and the Windrose team is mitigation of all of that. How to make sure that you're gonna get your money back in the end. Victoria, do you have any?

Victoria Pettyjohn: I think too, it's like also understanding the markets and stuff that you're investing in, whether it's like the active investor or the passive investor.

I know that I've seen that where I know I've seen in my time where the markets have gone crazy. So it's been awesome. But there's also been the times where they've crashed, and so understanding what that looks like too and knowing that it could happen, that real estate is high risk. It's high risk, high reward.

Angie Petyjohn: Being the expert. So you really do need to take responsibility and be the expert on where you are lending or where you are investing.

Sarah Larbi: I think part of it too is just like that loan to value, right? As somebody that's a hundred percent loan to value versus somebody that's, at 70 on a first mortgage that first mortgage person gets paid out before the second mortgage person.
I think it's also risk tolerance and hence why, the cost of first is less expensive than the cost of the second, and the cost of third is a lot more expensive because that's the order that people get paid out in should something happen.

Angie Petyjohn: That's a good point. And that's a simple one, is understanding the loan to value of the project that you're lending on. And understanding that you may want that buffer and before the first mortgage gets paid out, there's other things that come ahead of you, like lawyer fees, realtor commissions if there's, taxes that need to be paid, anything, government comes ahead.

If you're not comfortable going to 100% cause you don't know who Sarah Larbi is, then you would end up probably around the 80% so that till you get more comfortable with Sarah and her deals, and then most likely you'll start increasing it to a hundred percent. But if that's never in your wheelhouse, then, just stick to the 80%. So you're lessening your risk.

Francois Lanthier: I'm curious to ask Victoria, have you seen some really creative deals, something really complicated, and I don't know, I'm just dying to ask.

Victoria Pettyjohn: I've seen some creative ones where I've seen investors like blanket their properties so that they can get out at extra funds that they're borrowing from mom and dad, and that they're pulling from this line of credit, that line of credit to make sure that they're or is it that their low, like their rates are a little lower? I'm trying to think of anything.

Angie Petyjohn: Really our full spectrum, the scale of lending. A hundred percent. The, not only a hundred percent the value of the property, but including closing fees and renovation costs. That's probably the most creative. And along the way, having to keep raising the money on prom notes so that the investor can complete their projects.

Sarah Larbi: You mentioned prom notes and then I feel like I need to ask you while we're on the topic, that's obviously not tied to real estate, but what are your thoughts, what are like, do you do a lot of them? Do you caution people against it? Thoughts on prom notes?

Angie Petyjohn: I'll go over my thoughts and then Victoria will say her thoughts were different because she's the underwriter. We would only lend a prom note if we were very secure in who the investor is that we were lending it to.
You have to have at least three or four properties under your belt. You had to have proven to us that you're on time and on budget, that there's good repayment, that there was good lift. So there's a lot that goes into those, especially and we're very conservative on how we would underwrite.

We'd only go to 80% the A R V. And like I said earlier, we've scaled that back during this time to 70% the ARV and then the real estate investor may have to find another means to close, close that out. But we are along the way, keeping track of the project. Again, it has to be with a real estate investor that we feel very confident.

Sarah Larbi: I was gonna say, so it sounds like what you're saying in your opinion is they build a track record with you, the first one, they may not get, everything that they want. The second one, maybe a little bit more, the third one. And at some point they've built enough trust and a reputation with your company. That thing more doors open up essentially, is what you're saying.

Angie Petyjohn: That's it. And Victoria, do you wanna give your underwriting.

Victoria Pettyjohn: I guess just tacking on to what Angie was saying. I'm a little bit more conservative than Angie is as well.
I'm looking for those like top tier investors. So once they've done a couple properties with us, it's do they have savings to fall back on? What if the property doesn't get the lift that they want? Do they have other properties that they could, if they absolutely needed, Sell. Could they liquidate any of like stocks or do they have RSPs that they could pull out to pay back this money? And so I'm always looking at the worst case scenario, I guess with prom notes because they're not tied to real estate.

Angie Petyjohn: That's where I think that partnership between us works really well because we can. The project amongst ourselves, and then we come to a happy medium with where we're happy to lend on.

Sarah Larbi: Obviously there's a lot of lenders out there. I'm just curious, what makes you and your company different from others out there?

Angie Petyjohn: It's because we understand it because I'm a lender myself and I understand that aspect of it. I've just been very fortunate to know a lot of people who have the funds and are now very happy with us. And we just keep rinse and repeat with those lenders and being part of The REITE club and them seeing us here. We've been very fortunate enough where people have come forward and wanted to lend to us because we are part of this.

Sarah Larbi: Absolutely. That's awesome. And I know you've done a lot of business on both sides borrowing and the lending piece for a lot of our REITE club communities. So thank you guys for the continued support. So the next part of the podcast, Angie and Victoria is our lightning round. So Francois and I will ask you a series of four questions. Everybody gets the same questions, and you can give us the first answer that comes to mind. So we'll get an answer from each of you. Are you ready to play?

Angie Petyjohn: Yes.

Sarah Larbi: All right. Question number one, Victoria, maybe we'll start with you on this one. What is the best advice that you have ever received from another investor or at a networking event?

Victoria Pettyjohn: The best advice I've received is start when you are ready. So don't start because someone is pressuring you to do it. Start because you feel a hundred percent that you were ready and you can commit.

Sarah Larbi: All right. Great advice. Angie, what about you?

Angie Petyjohn: I was gonna say that Victoria, I would say the best advice was like, have all your ducks in a row.

Sarah Larbi: All right. Very cool.

Francois Lanthier: It's essential. In 2021. So our next question is, what's your favorite resource? Real estate investing resource. A book, a person, a club, something.

Victoria Pettyjohn: My favorite resource is Claire Drage actually. I've been able to pick her brain over the last two years and she's been such a wealth of knowledge that I've been able, in all her webinars, everything it's her.

Angie Petyjohn: I have to say the same. And also was very fortunate to be in a networking group with Dylan Suiter when he first started. So yeah, the two of them.

Sarah Larbi: All right. Very cool. So Angie, we'll start with you on this next question. What is the one attribute that has made you most successful?

Angie Petyjohn: My determination and my, I just won't take no for an answer, I just keep going.

Sarah Larbi: Awesome. Good. And what about you, Victoria?

Victoria Pettyjohn: The way I analyze stuff at being an underwriter, like you really need to have that focus in order to do it. And I, I think that's what has made me most.

Francois Lanthier: Excellent. And Victoria, starting off with you, what do you typically do on a Sunday morning?

Victoria Pettyjohn: Sunday morning I'm curled up on the couch, drinking my coffee and hanging out with my cats and I'm trying to watch something, but probably not cause they're all over me.

Francois Lanthier: Angie, what about yourself? How do you start Sunday mornings?

Angie Petyjohn: Depends on if there was a leaf game the night before and how my mood is . In all seriousness, I do, I start my day every day. Sitting outside I have my cup of coffee outside with my husband and we talk about what we're planning for the day, and then we go, we always go for a very long walk or hike and yeah, we start our day from there.

Sarah Larbi: That sounds awesome.

Francois Lanthier: That's a lovely lifestyle.

Sarah Larbi: I see your Maple leaf. Is it a jersey or something in the back there?

Angie Petyjohn: That's, yeah, that's a signed little flag that I have.

Sarah Larbi: Cool. Angie Victoria, where can our REITE Club Nation reach out and find out more?

Angie Petyjohn: You can reach out to angie, we're on social media as the Pettyjohn team. Reach out anytime. My phone number's (416) 970-9107 and Victoria be my underwriter. Will receive the emails as well.

Sarah Larbi: All right. Amazing. Angie Victoria, any final last words of advice for our REITE Club nation?

Angie Petyjohn: I wanna say always start with your why. Figure that out. Figure out what your purpose is in real estate investing. And then call the pettyjohn team.

Sarah Larbi: Victoria. Final last words.

Victoria Pettyjohn: I'm echoing what Angie said. Just get your ducks in a row first. It makes it so much less stressful. When you're, you have it

Sarah Larbi: Awesome, Victoria, Angie, thank you so much for being on the show today and folks reach out to them if you're looking for private money to loan out to borrow or mortgages in general. So thanks for being on.

Angie Petyjohn: Thanks guys. I really appreciate it.

Francois Lanthier: Thank you. Hey Sarah, so what did you think about the interview? I love the more information about private lending and how it works as a mortgage broker.

Sarah Larbi: Absolutely. Private lending, if you are loaning out your money, it could be another strategy a, to boost your cash flow, but also to be a little bit more hands off versus maybe doing the, an actual BRRRR, right? There's different types of strategies for different people. You might have some RSPs that you're like, I don't wanna be necessarily, taking a chance on whether I'm gonna get three or 6% or what it is. I'd rather. Know that I'm getting 10% or I'd rather know I'm getting whatever that amount is and loan it out that way. So there's tons of different strategies. I thought it was really cool that they also work together. Mother and daughter team, any big takeaways on your end?

Francois Lanthier: The mom and daughter team is really cool. My kids are getting up to that age now. Set 15 and 17. At some point I'm hoping they'll work with me. And how do you balance that now? It's no longer, okay, mom's gonna call you back. You have to say, Angie. So it's cool seeing that. And as investors sometimes you might want to invest with your own kids or siblings or, so it's cool to see that family tie and sometimes it's part of your why. My why is my family, so why not work with my family?

It sounds amazing. That's really cool. And I loved how Angie already knew about private lending many years ago, so it's great that she had a major head start and now she's thinking about investing in real estate, So it's just a great interview.

Sarah Larbi: Absolutely. I hope you guys enjoyed today's show. Come grow with us and don't forget we're living our dreams and come join us to live your dream as well.

Francois Lanthier: Take care.